"core" and "non-core" posts

[Neeyik]

So, thats it, you guys dont like that part of forum and in my eyes that means that people who post there are acctually not welcomed here. Thats what this is all about, isnt it.

No, that's not what it is all about at all. Do you honestly believe that just because we personally do not like that section of the forums, we dislike anybody who posts in there? What - do I hate myself? Or Dave!? Because we've used it! I personally do not like the RPSC section simply because I do not think it is appropriate for this website, because it has a very specific focus about it. However, I am personally not overly keen on the Console and Handheld sections either and the Unix section does not interest me at all; but in no way of any kind, do I dislike anybody who uses those sections!

I'm actually totally astonished by your comment Silence, hence why my reply is rather short. I've honestly no idea on how to resolve your issues, if that is what you truly believe.

 

[incurable]

i cant compete with people in Tech forums and i,as i said, dont want to pollute it with garbage, just so i get postcount...
if i cared about postcount, you wouldnt see me here going around like this, i would go to that part and ask questions...

I know you might not even read this anymore, silence, but do you realize that these two consecutive sentences make absolutely no sense coming from the same person?

I still don't see what is unfair about the changes because nobody has had their posting rights removed.

What's IMO unfair and illogical about the current practise is that old, frequent posters are not just the only group that can give negative reputation, but also gain the ability to hide their own.

IMO, this also adds considerably to the urge to influence the only 'Senior'-qualifier you yourself have power over, your postcount, giving it additional meaning that it doesn't deserve. But, well, I'm digressing ...

 

[digitalwanderer]

when I suggested this latest update to the site staff and mods not a single one of them expressed any liking for the RPSC forum at all, and I put myself at the top of that particular list; I don’t think any of us really want the forum, want the hassle of having to mod it, or really want to venture in there very often, but the fact is we know why its there, why it was created and why it has to stay (even though we don’t want it).

Y'know what, I guessed as much!

Thanks for leaving us a place to play/air our opinions/argue/fight/get our anger out all catharticy like, it's much appreciated and it does keep the rest of the forum nicer.

If it's any consolation I think the RP&SC forum is a rather unique place on the internet now, and for a forum with such "high spirited" discussions and almost no moderation it runs itself remarkably well.

Silence, please chill on the other stuff and stay...I really do love having your input in the RP&SC. Let the bigbrains have their "core forums", that's where I steal all my best stories from anyways.

 

[Geo]

You'd think that a fellow who has such high reputation, and freely admits it is not from the tech forums, would appreciate the fact that the leaving of reputation has not been turned off in the non-tech forums, rather than having a hissy-fit over where post count is coming from and not coming from.

I'll say it again --after 1,000 it doesn't make all that much difference anyway. Pretty much any senior member will have the power to arrest the progress of a Registrered (unless other senior members take a hand on the other side, of course).

 

[Pete]

i just dont like the feeling now. simple as that.

OK, well, I tried to understand your position, but I still don't.

i cant compete with people in Tech forums and i,as i said, dont want to pollute it with garbage, just so i get postcount...

But it's not a competition.... It's a learning experience for people like you and me.

If you are leaving, I don't think you do so because of any tweaking of the forums. I think you do so for other reasons that you're not going into here. Or maybe it's as plain as the most-repeated phrase in this thread: post count. On the one hand, you say you don't care about it. On the other hand, it's your only substantive complaint, as that's all that's really changed.

Anyway, better luck with another forum, if you choose to go.

 

[t0y]

I'd say he's not concerned with the postcount itself but with what comes out of having a higher postcount. Before the change, it was just "the number of posts" and now it's "the number of valuable posts. I never had any trouble making the separation by myself before but now we have this flawed metric to decide beforehand who is a "good" or "bad" poster, hence clearly dividing the users of the forum. And it's not just this: you also have elevated privileges while being a "reputable" member, like editable tag, editable posts, "judging" powers, etc.

Personally, being a member that doesn't participate often in the more technical posts, I don't really care about it. I do feel a little left out at times (getting bad reputation from an unknown user comes to mind). It's not the end of the world, I guess, but I also get that feeling that I'm not supposed to be here, that this is some kind of discussions log where I can read what people have said but not participate.

Also, not aware of the full extent of the changes made, I don't feel at ease having a lower 'rank' than users that participate often in the console forums (that I don't read at all) or in endless, pointless threads where it's almost impossible to chime in after 20 pages worth of babble (I hope I'm not insulting anyone). I do have some technical knowledge but I refrain myself from making "me too" posts, or engaging in conversation instead of discussion like these threads usually end up.

About the RPSC forums (where I participate often), I don't know what's the problem with having a regular reader register an account to post his opinion. All of us feel like being at home after lurking for a while and every one should be welcome. If your gripe is with the RPSC forum instead of spam or giving more relevance to the "good" posters (like it's been said refering to the purpose of this system) just go ahead and delete it. The rest of the forum is moderated, right?

Anyway, just to end this rant, I'd rather see all 'ranking stats' go away (rep points, member title, post count), as well as the reputation system instead of waiting for it to 'just work'.

Just my opinion...

 

[Tim Murray]

So wait, you're upset because your post count won't increase for the majority of the posts you make? Boo hoo? Seriously, if you're more worried about your post count than the amount you contribute to any forum, you probably don't belong here, whether it's in the tech forums or otherwise.

 

[Pete]

One last Fisking.

I'd say he's not concerned with the postcount itself but with what comes out of having a higher postcount.

Nothing comes of it.

Unless it's the rep pts system and PMs that you're after, and the feeling of participating in rating other people? Still, I can't understand how ranking or rep pts would matter in an open forum for general discussion, nor do I understand how someone of high repute who rarely ventures outside of General would warrant that same badge in the 3D fora. Rep pts make a little more sense with the more technical discussion that falls under this site's purview, IMO. Seems to me it'd be a lot more obvious who's trolling in the more intuitive matters discussed in the "non-core" fora, whereas it may not be as obvious with someone who joins to say repeatedly that R520 is basically poop on a chip--or, conversely, that it's God's gift to gamers/devs/AIBs/shareholders/dog.

Before the change, it was just "the number of posts" and now it's "the number of valuable posts.

Replace "valuable" with "on topic" or "relevant" and you've got a point. Post count does not and never has connoted value or worth, just quantity. But maybe it's the ability to participate in the rep pts system that you're after, as I gleamed above.

 

[t0y]

Nothing comes of it.

Not for you, me, or anyone that reads the forums for a while. Put yourself in a lurker's position. It takes time to make the distinction between "good" and "bad" posters when you don't have any metric to base your judgment, and post count by itself is not generally regarded as a fail-safe approach by anyone. Reputation, OTOH, has a completely different meaning. If you read a post by a member with 10,000 posts, 2+ little green squares and a different title, you can (wrongly) conclude that he is "reputable" even if 99% of all the posts he made were pointless. See what I mean? We do have a metric now, but one that doesn't guarantee anything. Nothing stops members from trying to get this kind of "status" by posting in zero-content threads. Personally, I don't care (as long as I can post and edit), but others will find this a mandatory precedure to get accepted.

Unless it's the rep pts system and PMs that you're after, and the feeling of participating in rating other people?

I'd actually prefer to see all of these things disappear from my browser if I could. I don't use PMs except in very specific situations (I have the grand total of 5). Also, i don't feel the need to rate other people but it's not nice to see anonymous comments (good or bad) in your user CP.

Still, I can't understand how ranking or rep pts would matter in an open forum for general discussion

You'll understand in a few months time.

, nor do I understand how someone of high repute who rarely ventures outside of General would warrant that same badge in the 3D fora.

Agreed, but nothing stops me from going through a posting spree in 3d hw without actually bringing anything new and getting a higher rank, doesn't it? It makes posting more important that posting truly valuable information or interesting discussion arguments. And it separates members by ranks using a flawed logic.

I hope people won't take this as a complaint rather than a regular (although not very participant) member's opinion.

 

[Dave Baumann]

Reputation, OTOH, has a completely different meaning. If you read a post by a member with 10,000 posts, 2+ little green squares and a different title, you can (wrongly) conclude that he is "reputable" even if 99% of all the posts he made were pointless. See what I mean? We do have a metric now, but one that doesn't guarantee anything. Nothing stops members from trying to get this kind of "status" by posting in zero-content threads.

Reputation is given or taken by ones peers within the forum - part of the point of inclusion is for other members to rate down threads/posts that have little or no point/content in order to help kurb that sort of behaviour - because reputation is given by the peers of the forum, who presumably don't want to read countless posts of drivel, in the end it should be more of an indication of the value that persons post brings to the forum than post count ever will be.

 

[t0y]

It's not that I didn't understand the point of all this. I really do. I just think it won't work the way it's supposed to and some bad things might come out of it, that's all.

In the end, I respect 100% your decision despite not agreeing with it.

 

[silence]

i will say this only once.... and for the last time.
i do NOT care about post count.
i do NOT care about rep.

what i care is that owner of the this site said that he thinks that parts of the site are annoyance and he would be happy to get rid of them. since i post there cause i am polite enough not to post shit in his "core" i do NOT feel welcomed here.

and for those who havent understood yet... no it is NOT about rep or post count, its about Dave making part of people that contribue to his site (how many clicks you think i make every day Dave?, how much does that help with advertising?) as some sort of "unwanted annoyance that should be happy that is tolerated"....

i knew the second when these changes were made what is behind them....
maybe there should be form to check if new member is worthy to post here?

good luck to all....

and Dave.... giving rep without even comment.... well... good for you.

 

[Gerry]

and for those who havent understood yet... no it is NOT about rep or post count, its about Dave making part of people that contribue to his site (how many clicks you think i make every day Dave?, how much does that help with advertising?) as some sort of "unwanted annoyance that should be happy that is tolerated"....

I never quite understand the attitude some people take regarding something that they use and enjoy free of charge on the internet. I don't think Dave has ever given any indication other than he believes the 3D forums are the core of this site, and everything else is just gravy. I can't see why there's any obligation on his behalf to feel grateful for people using what he believes to be forums that are outside the remit of his site. In fact we should be grateful to him for providing his time and money (I doubt whether the advertising gets close to covering the costs of the site) to keep things running.

I've seen other enthusiast forums (totally unrelated to 3D) follow paths where they become too popular, they lose focus, and the owners simply become disillusioned and simply give up. I think any efforts by Dave to try and control the forums and not let them slide down that route (pronounced "root" of course) is to be applauded.

If, as you say, this is simply about not feeling "wanted" on these forums, I'd suggest you flip things around and wonder how "wanted" Dave is when after upgrading the forums, spending time in trying to implement all these new changes, he still gets grief from people. Personally I'd find it completely disheartening.

 

[digitalwanderer]

what i care is that owner of the this site said that he thinks that parts of the site are annoyance and he would be happy to get rid of them. since i post there cause i am polite enough not to post shit in his "core" i do NOT feel welcomed here.

Actually I'm probably the one most guilty of "shitting" in core forums, so if anything take it as a personal attack at Dave towards me.

Now that doesn't offend me oddly enough, it's part of what I like about B3D; they call it like it is and tell it how they feel. Dave could have given you a whole line of happy bullshit about why he did it, but he told you the honest truth about how he feels instead.

I respect that, and it's one of the reasons I like Dave so much.

It's ok that they don't like it, I always thought it was pretty cool of them to put the RP&SC forum up for us and leave it all alone the way they do...there really ain't a whole lot of sites that will do that!

It's a rare and beautiful thing that I don't want to spoil/ruin, so I just try and accept things as they come and trust the community will stay good and stay strong.

I respect your decision and don't mean to argue with you over it Silence....besides I forgot you belong to EB and I can still post with ya there. (Who's "Political Debates Forum" I'm trying like hell to model after B3D; but it's a royal biatch since the mod is such an egomaniacal and overbearing prick...but I think you'll get along with him just fine. )

)

 

[Dave Baumann]

what i care is that owner of the this site said that he thinks that parts of the site are annoyance and he would be happy to get rid of them. since i post there cause i am polite enough not to post shit in his "core" i do NOT feel welcomed here.

and for those who havent understood yet... no it is NOT about rep or post count, its about Dave making part of people that contribue to his site (how many clicks you think i make every day Dave?, how much does that help with advertising?) as some sort of "unwanted annoyance that should be happy that is tolerated"....

i knew the second when these changes were made what is behind them....

Curious, then, you only mention this now, because this situation has ever been thus - we just have different tools at our disposal now. Did you not previously realise that the RPSC forum under the old software was the only forum here to auto-prune posts greater than 90 days? That was instigated from the off and no-one complained, even when it was pointed out.

There's been no change in emphasis in what the primary focus of these forums are, there have just been a change in tools that allow different functionality. Considering the arguments about whether this is a PC site and the importance of the console forums in relation to how much hassle they can be sometimes, and that I've even gone to the lengths of closing them down periodically to let it cool off, despite it being the single most frequently visited forum right now, I'm surprised anyone would have any questions as to where the RPSC forum stand in terms of relevance to the site!

As it happens, yes, I give quite considerable quantities of my spare time (as do the other members and moderators of this site - presumably, I assume, for similar reasons as myself) because I wanted to do something that I have an interest in; if I wanted to run a politics site then I would have done so, not a 3D site. Sometimes these peripheral forums can and do take time away from running the site as a whole and that can be an annoyance because I don't necessarily want the hassle of dealing with it and it distracts from what’s more important to the site, which is what the vast majority of you signed up for (as, in fact, do writing posts like these - I could, right now, be plugging a number of cards together to see if they will co-operate with one another, but instead I'm writing this). Even if this were a commercial site, I doubt this particular facet would be any different, and as Nick points out, other commercial sites instigate similar policies.

[As for the financial aspect of thing, I'm afraid you really don't have a grasp of it - fundamentally forums are the least appealing coverage for advertisers because they are very high views but of the same people, hence very low click-through ratio, so forums tend to pay worse than anything else, certainly the main body of the site where articles and news provide high page views, but of multiple different users hence a higher click through ratio. Fundamentally I'm not considering this as a revenue earner though; if I was then you would probably have seen a doubling of the number of banners in the forum and site and adwords all over the articles - all of which I believe would be wholly detrimental]

That said, in no way shape or form are we saying don't post there - we provide it for people to converse there, so feel free to do so; especially if you are a fairly responsible poster than can refrain from deriding other members and writing flamatory posts, I'm more than happy then!

 

[Geo]

Hmm. Did Wavey just say he is benching/analyzing CrossFire?

 

[Rys]

Hmm. Did Wavey just say he is benching/analyzing CrossFire?

 

[mcsven]

I joined B3D in April 2002. I don't think I posted anything until two years later, when I started to post in the RSPC and general forums after my interest in 3D hardware started to wane. Now I don't really bother checking the hardware forums regularly because I upgraded recently and I don't plan to do so again for a while. My post count is 100 posts and I expect it to stay around that forever.

I find it interesting that the B3D staff dislike the RSPC forum but I'm glad that it's still around and will stay around. I enjoy posting and discussing stuff there. However I would say that if the staff don't want to moderate it, then don't! It's got this far without moderation and there doesn't appear to be a good reason to change now, unless the staff feel that it reflects badly on the site or some such.

 

[Pete]

t0y, I understand your skepticism of rep pts. You may have more experience with similar ratings systems in other forums. My only experience was with Anandtech, and, as I said, it was pulled after a short while, probably because nothing constructive came of letting anyone and everyone rate anyone and everyone. I'm hoping (no doubt along with Dave and whoever else he's consulted with) that restricting reps to longtime members leads to a more accurate gauge of how well someone contributes to the (core) forums. As you said, only time will tell. I'm optimistic, you're not.

silence, again, you think B3D is something it's not. I don't think Dave or anyone else can offer any more hand-holding over how you should approach or appreciate a free forum. Maybe Dave's comment on the finances will indicate how crucial our eyeball time is to to fora. You may not post in the "core" fora because you're polite, but you still don't grasp that the only reason you can post at all in RSPC is because Dave is polite. Some sites, like Ars, restrict certain OT fora to paying customers. So I think you should, like me, be happy Dave leaves RSPC open to all, and not expect too much beyond that.

Besides, Dave doesn't spend much (any?) time in RSPC at all. I'd understand your taking offense if you debated him often, but I doubt you (or anyone else) has debated him in RSPC at all, so why care about his opinion over his actions (leaving RSPC free and open to all)?

Yes, my replies to you are becoming increasingly curt because I'm becoming increasingly exasperated with your rolleyes and what I perceive to be an immature attitude toward this whole thing.

Look, even us "core" posters don't take things for granted, as Dave has once already locked and archived the entire 3D Tech & Hardware forum, which was started again from scratch (tho the old one appears to have been quietly reintegrated with the new forum software--Dave, maybe consider auto-locking threads after 60-90 days of inactivity?).

geo, dammit, don't you know that this is a non-core forum and that post didn't count? Save it for the cores, man!

 

[3dcgi]

I can probably count the number of times I've posted in the political forums on my fingers so I personally don't make use of it much, but while reading a book recently I had an interesting observation.

The book is called "The Great Good Place" and it covers the concept of the Third Place. Home and work being first and second. Traditionally pubs and cafes are considered Third Places but Beyond3D could be considered a third place. People are brought here by a common interest in graphics and games, but discussion branches into politics and other worldly matters. The diverse background of each community member adds to the appeal of this non-traditional third place.

This fits the description put forth by the author so I thought it was interesting and relevant considering it suggests having the General Discussion section is a good thing for building communities.