*Console Display Calibration Issues

ps!concerning the screen inability to do 252 to 255 ,some feel it isn't a biggy but I don't agree! it mess the gamma and we tend to raise white more then it is recommended wich also cuase issue! bottom line?
srgb 100% unit is the only safe solution ! yep might have to sell that old unit rofl!

 

In regards to the Limited Range and Full Range debate and the Xbox One -or consoles in general-, HDTVs and stuff, that's what I found on the net.

Full Range might be better, but TVs don't seem to be made for them, in my humble opinion.

That's what Spears & Munsil say on the matter in their TV calibration tutorial:

http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio/getting-started-with-the-high-definition-benchmark/

IGN on Xbox One and some games, when the console was launched.

http://www.ign.com/wikis/xbox-one/Xbox_One_RGB_Limited_(TV)_Vs._RGB_Full_(PC)

djskribbles might approve. AVS Forums, someone's input explains why Full Range seemed to enhance the contrast on my TV -'cos it adds saturation-. Very interesting reply overall, I bolded just part of it anyways.

The person replying mentions that if you have a HDMI TV you can rest assured it is made, configured and calibrated for Limited RGB.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1265815/rgb-full-range-limited-or-full

Random guy on Reddit talking about full RGB on PS4. Not as technical but interesting nonetheless.

http://www.reddit.com/r/PS4/comments/1r97bi/do_not_change_your_rgb_range_to_full_unless_you/

 

It "adds saturation" because the difference in color channels is greater when you represent your video on the wider range. Who knows, maybe some screens do other processing, but the basic cause of increased saturation that will apply to all cases of sending a full-range signal to a limited-range display is the exact same mechanism that causes crushed blacks and clipped whites.

Imagine that you have R and G at middle grey level (128), and B at 200. When you shift to RGB full output, R and G are still at middle grey level, but blue gets shifted to somewhere in the ballpark of 210. Hence, more saturation if you're still interpreting the signal over the limited range.

 

By correct I just mean that maybe Xbox One developers program the games with Limited RAnge in mind.

The console is meant to watch TV -generally yCrB content- and playing at the same time. Then the xbox.com FAQ recommends using Limited Range... It sounds logical to me.

On the CRT issue, you might have a point there. I didn't test that enough. With the evolution from the CRT SD era to the LCD HD current times what I observed is that old games that seemed to look ok on CRT were full of jaggies and shimmering on LCDs. That was a key difference for me.

 

If the video output system works correctly, there shouldn't be any systemic colour difference between the two ranges, as long as they're transmitted and received in a correctly-matched way.

If there's a difference between programming the game with limited range in mind, and programming the game with full range in mind, it means the video output system is broken.

The jaggies and the shimmering still show up on a CRT (I should know, I still use an SD CRT for old stuff), it just doesn't look as bad when there's less scaling-ish stuff happening, when the colours are represented correctly, and when phosphors are being used as the image reconstruction filter.

I certainly agree that sixth-gen games tend to look better on low-res CRTs than on high-res LCDs.

 

I don't find the energy to give you a meaningful reply today, but I am thankful for the input. Especially the last paragraph, which explains quite clearly what I noticed.

The colours looked more intense and vivid -the contrast between black and white too, but not 100% sure about that, it could be just a hunch of mine rather than something real- in games like Powerstar Golf, especially the main screen, where you see a lens flare effect featuring rainbow like colours.

I do have some experience on the effects of the RGB channels and how they affect colours, not only from 'cos of messing around with the Tint levels on the TV but by using the built-in calibration tool in Windows 8 for my PC display. Just not on how Full Range RGB and Limited Range can have a different effect on that.

 

Stacey Spears and Don Munsil are very educated guys in the video industry (yes Stacey is a guy), but keep in mind that their goal is to first and foremost optimize video playback, not so much video games or PCs. They use different (albeit similar) standards. Plus it makes it easier because not all displays support RGB Full, and there's little to no benefit in using RGB full over Limited if your display supports both. The setting is mostly there on consoles for compatibility purposes. Technically speaking, Limited is perhaps better for video, but Full is better for PCs and consoles. But as I have said over and over, there is little to no difference either way. The most important thing is that you match your levels.

In regards to the AVS quote, they are simply describing issues for when you send full range to a display that doesn't support full range. Every display I've owned that supported both, I have not had issues with my PS3 or PS4 when setting them to Full range. The display issues with RGB Full range appears to be an XB1 issue. So for now anyway, just use Limited. Only people with PC monitors that only support Full range will be affected by the black crush issue with Full range on XB1.

As for the reddit quote, it doesn't really make any sense. There's almost no difference between Full or Limited assuming everything in the chain is on the same page and assuming black/white are correctly mapped, which the PS3/PS4 do, but XB1 seemingly doesn't. Maybe it's because Sony knows a thing or two about video and displays since they make Blu-Ray players and TVs. X360 had issues with proper output as well.

edit: This isn't really related to this discussion, but I just want to point something out in regards to this quote from the AVS post:

On the PS3, whether you use Limited or Full, BTB/WTW is clipped regardless. The only way to pass BTB/WTW on the PS3 is to use YCbCr output for Blu-Ray and enable super-white. This setting extends the range to 0-255 while keeping black at 16 and white at 235 so that you can see BTB/WTW. Blu-Rays and most video content is mastered to 16-235. Detail below 16 (BTB) should not be visible anyway, and detail above 235 (WTW) is mostly not visible to the human eyes anyway. But technically speaking, you should try to preserve BTB/WTW detail if possible, but it's not the end of the world if you can't.

Again, this has little to do with consoles/PCs, but more in regards to Blu-Ray/video playback/display calibration.

 

I have a LG LW5600, it has to be some really old display to not supporting RGB Full range properly. I basically have to create 2 profiles, one with correct black level for PS3 and 360 in full range and other for PS4 and WiiU, because Wii U doesn't even have the option for RGB full range and PS4 one just doesn't work. Its not good because I can only have 1 game profile for low input lag.

 

It does work with two known limitations, PS4 doesn't translate video levels for blu-ray playback and web browser bug, which makes calibrating via web pages (since PS4 doesn't have picture viewer as PS3) somewhat difficult.

 

I have LG displays older than yours that support RGB Range fine. The problem with LG displays is that their RGB range setting affects all signals/inputs when it should only affect RGB signals. This could cause conflicts with devices that share an HDMI input.

Not sure where you're located, but on North American LG displays, the RGB range setting is called 'HDMI Black Level' or simply 'Black Level', and the options are Low (16-235/Limited) and High (0-255/Full).

 

I don't know what dev optimize for on xbox one! I wish tho they would push limited rgb ! it would make everything simpler !everything use limited but pc!

 

I have heard this a couple of times over the years, can you explain more on this? I will post my findings for the ps4 later today.

 

BTB/WTW is more related to Blu-Ray/video than games/PCs. Blu-Rays are mastered using a range of 16-235 where 16 is reference black and 235 is reference white. Unlike RGB Limited, the range isn't so much compressed, but rather cut off at those levels. Therefore, there is additional picture information below 16 (BTB) and above 235 (WTW). However, since Blu-Rays are mastered to 16-235, levels below 16 shouldn't be visible, and levels above 235 are typically not seen; they're just spectral highlights like chrome reflections or sparkles etc., there's no actual 'detail' there.

Enabling the PS3's super-white setting essentially opens the full range so that you can see BTB/WTW information, while disabling it essentially clips the range at video reference black (16) and video reference white (235). Seeing the full range helps with setting the Brightness (black level) and Contrast (white level) on your display. When it comes to calibrating for video, typically you don't want to see anything at level 16 and below, but you want to avoid clipping white detail completely, or at the very least you want to avoid clipping up to 235.

I'm not exactly sure what the PS3 does when it converts to RGB for Blu-Ray, but there's no way to view BTB/WTW information with RGB output. I'm guessing it either simply maps reference video black/white and ignores BTB/WTW information; or it converts YCbCr to RGB Full Range and BTB/WTW information is lost, then compresses to RGB Limited if selected. But again, because Blu-Ray is mastered to 16-235, it's not the end of the world if you clip BTB/WTW.

The PS4 is different from the PS3 in the way it handles Blu-Ray -- it always outputs YCbCr, and it appears to always output BTB/WTW. I Still don't know what the YCbCr range setting does.

When it comes to game consoles, assuming the mapping of the RGB range is done properly, and everything in the chain is matched, then nothing is being clipped. It's either outputting full range 0-255 RGB, or it will be compressed to limited range 16-235 RGB. The PS3/PS4 output proper levels, but the XB1 seems to have issues outputting RGB full range at the moment. The X360 also outputs an unusual gamma curve AFAIK.

 

Yeah strange i just checked and the ycbcr range setting doesn't do anything, i am getting white values higher than 235 with either limited or full. Shame you can't switch to rgb when viewing movies. There is a way to watch rgb limited/full videos, and it's through the internet browser using a dlna program called plex media server. I downloaded the mp4 avs 709 black/contrast test pattern videos on my laptop and managed to stream them through the ps4 browser.

The result is that the contrast clips at 235 both on limited and full. So it's just like the ps3. Does the ps4 actually output true 0-255? I heard that the ps3 did not actually output full rgb even when selected, and that it just brightened 16-235 to simulate 0-255? I'll have to search it again.

 

I don't know why is there so much fuss about BTB/WTW.
It's not like you are supposed to see anything from that range and if 16 is black on your display than you will not see anything from BTB anyway.

It doesn't make sense, why limit range on game rendering level when almost every display can take advantage of Full RGB range.
I'm aware of fact that limited and full looks almost the same on properly set-up display, but from mathematical point of view limited have some 5537792 less colors than full, so is more likely to see banding in picture.

 

Maybe they limit consoles to rgb limited to save processing power? Not sure, but here is the source for my other comment:

Yes i totally agrre, full is better than limited but is the ps4 displaying it correctly? I tested the lagom black level pattern via the ps4 browser, quickly switching between RGB limited and full:


I do notice a slight difference on square 255. When in Limited, the white is a little muted. When in full, the white is a little brighter.

Before anyone asks, yes my tv supports rgb limited/full so i don't get any black crush on any of them.

Also what about this?

-Limited-


-Full-


You shouldn't be able to tell the difference between limited and full, yet the bottom image is visually darker. Is the ps4 outputting rgb full correctly for games?

 

Nope. Computer graphics work in 8 bits per pixel for output framebuffers. Converting to limited range actually adds a little effort to rendering.

When viewed on the same display, you will see a difference. If the display you are viewing them on is set to limited, the bottom pic will have black crush. If viewing on a full RGB display (like this PC), the top pic will lack contrast. They will only look the same when viewed side-by-side on two different displays with two different outputs.

 

The only time you really need to switch to RGB for movies is if you're using a monitor that only supports full range. YCbCr is ideal for Blu-Ray 99% of the time.

It outputs true full range AFAIK.

 

djskribbles I actually love you.

What you explained pretty much gives confirmation to a general 'feel' I had - on my TV at least, I get a punchier picture when playing Blurays than I do when playing games. It's undeniable that the way my display shows an RGB signal and a YCbCr one is very different.

 

It is ideal only because that is how blu-ray's are encoded, so with YCbCr you get original without any conversion.

I quite like how PS3 does conversion to Full RGB with chroma upsampling and actually respects what user set as output format.