*Console Display Calibration Issues

[Scott_Arm]

Not broken at all, I think. Nor an issue of your TV. It's just that, like mine, your TV doesn't accept Full Range. :smile2:

I tested it, following your link I can only see the last 11 squares at the very bottom. The many many others from there are totally invisible even if I crank up the Brightness to 100.

I had it calibrated on Limited Range, was happy with it, I thank DF for being so pro Full Range and so on but it's not an option for me nor something I am going to miss out on, tbh. In my opinion it is them who should adapt to the TVs and not the TVs to their pro Full Range crusade, which sucks.

My TV is a panel from May 2013, the younger sibling of this one, a very praise-worthy TV, so image quality is not a problem. Back to Limited Range, which btw says "TV" on the console.

http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/tvs/1301686/philips-42pfl5008t

This is the explanation for HDMI black level on my tv:

"HDMI Black Level:

The HDMI Black Level option will compensate for the black level range of an HDMI input. When this option is set it can expand the black level range to 0-255 from a YCrCb color source. When an HDMI device that supports an RGB color range and already use the 0-255 HDMI black level range is connected, the HDMI Black Level option will be grayed out. There are two options for setting HDMI Black Level;

Low: Sets the HDMI Black Level enhancement for deeper black level range.
Normal: Sets the HDMI Black Level enhancement for what the device is sending."

Maybe I'm supposed to set it to Normal all of the time, even when my Xbox One is set to Limited range RGB. When the Xbox One is set to full RGB. Confusing. If I get a chance I'll look at my 360 to see what it does with test patterns. My tv is a Samsung UN40ES6100. I believe it should accept 0-255.

All I've done is made myself confused, because I've tried all combinations of the output settings on the Xbox and the HDMI black level on the tv. If I set the Xbox One to output full RGB, the test patterns fail. Maybe you're right and it only accepts limited range. But then I don't really understand what the HDMI black level option is supposed to be doing. According to the description, the HDMI black level option should be greyed out if the tv is receiving full RGB, but it's never greyed out. I'm always able to change it.

I have Color Space set to Auto which should be correct.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I'm beginning to believe my tv does not accept full rgb and I'm just misunderstanding how the hdmi black level setting works.

 

[djskribbles]

**Edit: I don't understand how my tv works** I used the test pattern I linked and I was unable to see all of the distinct squares, no matter how high I turned the brightness. My Xbox was set to HDMI with full rgb, and my Samsung TV was set to HDMI black level "Normal" rather than "Limited." As far as I know, that is the full RGB setting. Unless my tv has an issue, or for some reason Internet Explorer has an issue on the Xbox One. It appears to be the same problem I have with the calibration tool, where the black eye will not appear at all.

If someone else with an Xbox One wants to try the test patterns at the following links, please let us know:

http://www.nicolaspeople.com/ch3rokeesblog/?p=16
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/

If someone else has an Xbox One hooked up to a monitor via DVI, that would also be interesting to see.

I never noticed the issue because the recommendations I found for my tv all said to calibrate at limited range, so I never really played around with full range.

Yes, Normal is Full Range on Samsungs, and Low is Limited Range. Every Samsung I've owned has worked as it should with a PS3, meaning PS3 RGB Limited / Samsung Low looks correct and PS3 RGB Full / Samsung Normal looks correct. Sorry I don't have an XB1 so I can't really help you. If Limited output on the XB1 with your TV set to Low looks normal, then I'd just go with that. Sounds like the XB1 might have some issues with crushing black with Full Range output.

 

[Cyan]

This is the explanation for HDMI black level on my tv:

"HDMI Black Level:

The HDMI Black Level option will compensate for the black level range of an HDMI input. When this option is set it can expand the black level range to 0-255 from a YCrCb color source. When an HDMI device that supports an RGB color range and already use the 0-255 HDMI black level range is connected, the HDMI Black Level option will be grayed out. There are two options for setting HDMI Black Level;

Low: Sets the HDMI Black Level enhancement for deeper black level range.
Normal: Sets the HDMI Black Level enhancement for what the device is sending."

Maybe I'm supposed to set it to Normal all of the time, even when my Xbox One is set to Limited range RGB. When the Xbox One is set to full RGB. Confusing. If I get a chance I'll look at my 360 to see what it does with test patterns. My tv is a Samsung UN40ES6100. I believe it should accept 0-255.

All I've done is made myself confused, because I've tried all combinations of the output settings on the Xbox and the HDMI black level on the tv. If I set the Xbox One to output full RGB, the test patterns fail. Maybe you're right and it only accepts limited range. But then I don't really understand what the HDMI black level option is supposed to be doing. According to the description, the HDMI black level option should be greyed out if the tv is receiving full RGB, but it's never greyed out. I'm always able to change it.

I have Color Space set to Auto which should be correct.

That's a fine TV if you ask me, with 3D and all... I have to Samsung TVs at home, older than yours, a 22" one and the one in the living room, which is 46" both from 2008, so I could give it a try.

I see you are confused..., I gotta admit I feel confused too. If I were you I wouldn't bother, the supposed benefits of Full Range don't seem to be a big deal.

It wasn't for the lack of trying, I gave it a go.

Not saying that Full Range is not superior, perhaps it isn't meant for /at least most/ TVs. I thought my TV looked better with it, mainly a placebo effect and the fact that black and whites looked objectively more highlighted -as if they were intensified-.

As for the Colour Space I remember that people recommended to use Wide instead of Auto, for the Samsung models I have at least. I am pretty sure that mine looked more accurate and just plain better at Wide than Auto.

Finally, the TV that I currently use features things like 3D, 36 bits colour (69 billion colours), etc, so it has to be a reason for engineers to not use Full RGB, I don't think they left it out unintentionally. Question is why....

 

[djskribbles]

PCs and I'm assuming consoles use a very similar colorspace to HD video (rec.709). With that said, Auto is usually closer to rec.709/sRGB on Samsungs, and Custom is what you should use if you have calibration equipment so that you can use the color management system. Native usually extends the colorspace and oversaturates everything.

 

[Cyan]

Yes, Normal is Full Range on Samsungs, and Low is Limited Range. Every Samsung I've owned has worked as it should with a PS3, meaning PS3 RGB Limited / Samsung Low looks correct and PS3 RGB Full / Samsung Normal looks correct. Sorry I don't have an XB1 so I can't really help you. If Limited output on the XB1 with your TV set to Low looks normal, then I'd just go with that. Sounds like the XB1 might have some issues with crushing black with Full Range output.

All this leads me to question Digital Foundry methods that make comparisons even more unfair.

As I said in the previous post, my TV supports 3D, it features 36 bit colour -which I set on the console and it works flawlessly-, DLNA, Smart TV, Wifi, Miracast, etc etc etc. :smile2:

The TV has been launched May 2013 and I purchased it October 2013. Hardly ancient stuff. So it's pretty clear to me that leaving Full RGB out is intentional.

Who knows better than TV manufacturers in the end?

bkillian clarified time ago that the people behind the calibration tool on the Xbox One are Spears and Munsil, whose calibration tools are known worldwide and quite acclaimed. :smile2:

They wholeheartedly recommend in the xbox.com webpage to use Limited Range instead of Full Range.

The Digital Foundry article, given their penchant for Full RGB leads me to believe that maybe Microsoft ask developers to program Xbox One games on Limited RGB, hence the games look incorrectly displayed at full RGB.

So for a fair comparison to be made, Digital Foundry should set the Xbox One to its proper and recommended setting, Limited RGB, leaving PS4, WiiU and the PC at Full Range, imo.

 

[HTupolev]

The Digital Foundry article, given their penchant for Full RGB leads me to believe that maybe Microsoft ask developers to program Xbox One games on Limited RGB, hence the games look incorrectly displayed at full RGB.

If the RGB range setting on the XB1 is causing massive colour skewing, yeah, maybe DF's analysis would be more fair to the game if they used the "correct" setting.

Though it would also mean that Microsoft's console has a pretty badly broken video output system.

I was talking about the fact that games like Forza looked truly amazing on the original X-box but when I switched to the next generation and bought a HDTV it looked so bad that it almost tainted all the good memories I had about that game.

Sure, at 480i or p on a CRT of the time it looked fine, but on a HDTV and progressive resolution settings you could tell the truth about the graphics of the game.

A friend told me before playing it on the X360: "If you have good memories about Forza, PLEASE don't run it on a Xbox 360 and a HDTV". Right he was...

Viewing an image with a sketchy real-time 2.25x-per-axis upscale on a fixed-pixel display that probably has vastly worse static contrast than the display it was intended for "tells the truth about the graphics"?

That a modern LCD tends to horrifically butcher the image from a sixth-gen console does not mean that an SD CRT is somehow enhancing the image. The CRT is simply showing the image much less incorrectly.

If I go play Halo 3: ODST on my old Trinitron, luminances don't clamp the same way they do on my LCD, and the bold contrasts across the entire image (particularly on areas with alpha-blended layers) actually wind up looking pretty bad. Even independently of resolving fine detail and combing, the game looks better on my LCD.
That does not mean the LCD is "making the game look better than it should." It means my CRT is displaying the image according to color response properties (and resolution, etc) that the game wasn't designed around.

In any case, I maintain that your original point about console games artificially looking better than PC games due to the display technology is pretty hard to accept. There's not a lot of reason that an SD CRT would benefit a console game image to a greater degree than a desktop CRT would benefit a PC game image.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Yes, Normal is Full Range on Samsungs, and Low is Limited Range. Every Samsung I've owned has worked as it should with a PS3, meaning PS3 RGB Limited / Samsung Low looks correct and PS3 RGB Full / Samsung Normal looks correct. Sorry I don't have an XB1 so I can't really help you. If Limited output on the XB1 with your TV set to Low looks normal, then I'd just go with that. Sounds like the XB1 might have some issues with crushing black with Full Range output.

Are you sure? The description of the HDMI black level that I posted makes it sound as if Low is full range and Normal is Limited range. If I set my Xbox One to Limited, I can switch the TV to either Low or Normal and use the Xbox One's calibration tool, and neither one looks wrong. Neither looks like they're crushing black. I can't figure it out. I honestly have no idea which setting is right. All I know is that if I set the Xbox One to Full range RGB, the test patters in the calibration tool and online do not work. No matter how high I set the brightness, there are parts of the range that will not display. Also, from Samsung's description the tv should behave the following way: "When an HDMI device that supports an RGB color range and already use the 0-255 HDMI black level range is connected, the HDMI Black Level option will be grayed out." That does not happen. No matter how I set the Xbox One, I can always switch between low and normal. The option is never greyed out. Someone with a better grasp of their tv could probably check the calibration tool and the test patters at full range to see if it is working or not. I have suspicions it is not, but I cannot prove it because of my fumbling with my tv.

This description from Samsung adds even more to my confusion, as it is supposedly for my model but it includes options I do not have.

The HDMI Black Level option will compensate for the black level range of an HDMI input. When this option is set it can expand the black level range to 0-255 from a YPrPb (Component) color source. When an HDMI device that supports an RGB color range and already use the 0-255 HDMI black level range is connected, the HDMI Black Level option will be grayed out. There are four options for setting HDMI Black Level;

Off: Turns the HDMI Black Level enhancement off.
Low: Sets the HDMI Black Level enhancement for low.
Normal: Sets the HDMI Black Level enhancement for medium.
High: Sets the HDMI Black Level enhancement for high.
If the external device you have connected does not support the full black range that the TVs panel can support you can enable the HDMI Black Level function and have the TV compensate for this lack of black level.

 

[djskribbles]

I'm 100% positive. I've owned Samsung displays for years. The last Samsung I've owned was a 2009 model, but I highly doubt they would change their labeling to possibly confuse customers. On my displays, the HDMI Black Level setting was adjustable whenever it was being fed an RGB signal. If I fed it a YCbCr signal, it would be grayed out (rightfully so because it should not apply).

With your XB1 set to Limited, switching your Samsung between Low and Normal should not look the same, given the same Brightness/Contrast settings. It should force you to re-adjust your Brightness/Contrast. Set your XB1 to Limited and set your Samsung to HDMI Black Level: Low, that is the correct setup.

If there are levels of black that are not visible no matter how high you set the Brightness when you set your XB1 to Full range and Samsung to Normal, then it sounds like the XB1 does not correctly map the RGB range to full and clips black detail.

The settings you posted sound like some sort of black level 'enhancer'... not the same thing. My Samsung displays had something that sounded similar, and what it did was basically modified your gamma curve to give the appearance of better black levels and increased contrast. Personally I would leave it off if you do have that setting, but it's up to you. Generally you want to avoid enabling any 'enhancement' settings.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I'm 100% positive. I've owned Samsung displays for years. The last Samsung I've owned was a 2009 model, but I highly doubt they would change their labeling to possibly confuse customers. On my displays, the HDMI Black Level setting was adjustable whenever it was being fed an RGB signal. If I fed it a YCbCr signal, it would be grayed out (rightfully so because it should not apply).

With your XB1 set to Limited, switching your Samsung between Low and Normal should not look the same, given the same Brightness/Contrast settings. It should force you to re-adjust your Brightness/Contrast. Set your XB1 to Limited and set your Samsung to HDMI Black Level: Low, that is the correct setup.

If there are levels of black that are not visible no matter how high you set the Brightness when you set your XB1 to Full range and Samsung to Normal, then it sounds like the XB1 does not correctly map the RGB range to full and clips black detail.

The settings you posted sound like some sort of black level 'enhancer'... not the same thing. My Samsung displays had something that sounded similar, and what it did was basically modified your gamma curve to give the appearance of better black levels and increased contrast. Personally I would leave it off if you do have that setting, but it's up to you. Generally you want to avoid enabling any 'enhancement' settings.

I set it back to Limited on the Xbox One and Low on the TV. My tv only has the options Low and Normal. I don't see any other black level adjustments that would map to what I posted above.

I cannot get Full RGB to work with the Xbox One at all.

 

[djskribbles]

I set it back to Limited on the Xbox One and Low on the TV. My tv only has the options Low and Normal. I don't see any other black level adjustments that would map to what I posted above.

I cannot get Full RGB to work with the Xbox One at all.

Don't worry too much about getting Full range working. It is perhaps an output issue MS has to fix.

Yes, HDMI Black Level Low and Normal were the options I had on my Samsungs. And I'm 100% positive that Low = Limited 16-235 and Normal = Full 0-255.

Just keep it the way you have it now, run the calibration and enjoy.

 

[Sigfried1977]

Have a 2009 Samsung Plasma, and yes, normal is full range and low is limited on mine as well. On a somewhat properly calibrated tv you shouldn't be able to tell them apart, so no point in losing any sleep over it.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Have a 2009 Samsung Plasma, and yes, normal is full range and low is limited on mine as well. On a somewhat properly calibrated tv you shouldn't be able to tell them apart, so no point in losing any sleep over it.

Yah, I'm not really worried about it from a visual perspective. I think my tv looks pretty good. I was just trying to figure out if I could conclusively prove the RGB full range output on the Xbox One was broken.

 

[AlNom]

Can't remember if it was brought up, but I do believe Richard mentioned recently there's possibly some malarky going on due to how the display planes are blended at the moment (since there's 3 now i.e. different from other HW). Hopefully, it's fixable*, unlike the 360's wonky gamma.

* so as to avoid developers defaulting back to SW upscaling, which... would defeat the whole point of these display planes. *sigh*

 

[Scott_Arm]

Can't remember if it was brought up, but I do believe Richard mentioned recently there's possibly some malarky going on due to how the display planes are blended at the moment (since there's 3 now i.e. different from other HW). Hopefully, it's fixable*, unlike the 360's wonky gamma.

* so as to avoid developers defaulting back to SW upscaling, which... would defeat the whole point of these display planes. *sigh*

But limited range seems to be correct. I'm not sure what it would have to do with the scalar or display planes. I'm curious to know if Xbox One captures look like their crushing black because they're being captured at full range, which is completely broken. It would make sense. It's kind of an inexcusable bug. If it's broken, they should just disable the option. I'll try to take some screens using test patterns to show what the bug looks like, and I'll post them somewhere.

 

[drbaltazar]

it depend on the tv you get!but if ms say :use rgb standard this means:
RGB 4:4:4 Pixel Format PC Standard not to be confused with the other
RGB 4:4:4 Pixel Format Studio (Limited RGB) this later one being limited to 15 to 240 (or so)
the main issue is often screen doesn't say whats going on ! but usually you you set tv to standard and disable cinema mode etc and make sure it is set to 1080p or 720p (since xbox one doesn't support 1080i)your screen may say something like ycbcr or xvycc! you will not want to use those if ms say to use srgb ! you ll have to find how to change it.usually adjustable in input option ! it will say something like ption:input option and then hdmi 1 2 or 3 and in those if you click it it will have option for limited full or automatic .might need to disable automatic and enable the one you want !

 

[BoardBonobo]

it depend on the tv you get!but if ms say :use rgb standard this means:
RGB 4:4:4 Pixel Format PC Standard not to be confused with the other
RGB 4:4:4 Pixel Format Studio (Limited RGB) this later one being limited to 15 to 240 (or so)
the main issue is often screen doesn't say whats going on ! but usually you you set tv to standard and disable cinema mode etc and make sure it is set to 1080p or 720p (since xbox one doesn't support 1080i)your screen may say something like ycbcr or xvycc! you will not want to use those if ms say to use srgb ! you ll have to find how to change it.usually adjustable in input option ! it will say something like ption:input option and then hdmi 1 2 or 3 and in those if you click it it will have option for limited full or automatic .might need to disable automatic and enable the one you want !

I thought full is 4:4:4 (12 bit) and limited is 4:4:2 (10 bit)?

 

[drbaltazar]

even when set properly you might have issue!but it depend on game dev!why?usually in 2014 game dev tend to ignore 0 to 3 and 252 to 255.but this still wont fix your gamma issue because the screen quality limit user to 4 to 251 on average! usually you have to make sure your tv can do 100% srgb (good luck)since tv only need limited usually .tv maker expect game dev to use limited if game dev don't ?then this become a problem.solution?on console ?I don't know of any but I could be wrong ! on pc I use icc version of srgb non-black scaled set with absolute colorimetry .oh it doesn't fix everything .white still go to 255 even tho most tv can only do 252 .but its the best I could find (when not having a full 100% srgb screen .meaning 0 to 255 (instead of the usual 3 to 252)

 

[drbaltazar]

nha srgb is 8 bit !to get higher you ll need to use scrgb!this will make ycbcr or xvycc happen .usually on pc ycbcr is 4.4.4 or 4.2.2 .yep you guessed it no 4.2.0 (the actual ycbcr max wich everything today movie wise usually use)

 

[drbaltazar]

I hear you can do higher then 8 bit srgb but I aint sure how this works! as far as I know today its like I mentioned here!