Chat with J Allard

[Sis]

You mean from 0% to 25% worldwide market share?

From 0% to 35% of the US market?

That's where it got them. Pretty damn good in 4 years if you ask me.

Looking at total consoles sold they may be a distant second, but look at the current software sales and hardware sales and they are more like a very close 2nd, especially in North America where they have ~35% of the market share vs Sony's 40%.

If Xbox was produced by any other company, it would LONG be dead by now. If you want a success story, look to the PlayStation (it went from what? 0% to 70% market share?). About the only thing I could see counting as a success for MS is that they created a powerful brand name.

.Sis

 

[Readykilowatt]

I just don't understand why people are offended by the 299 pack.

They are offended because it doesn't come with a hard drive, ie, its mere existence shot down the hope that many had that the Xbox 360 would come with a hard drive built-in.

 

[Sis]

They are offended because it doesn't come with a hard drive, ie, its mere existence shot down the hope that many had that the Xbox 360 would come with a hard drive built-in.

Right--I get being upset about not having a standard HDD. That has nothing to do with a 299 price, but whatever.

Without the standard hard drive the next generation might just forgo such innovative and critical gaming breakthroughs such as:

1) Blinx
2) No need to buy a memory card
3) better load times
4) Blinx 2

.Sis

 

[PARANOiA]

If Xbox was produced by any other company, it would LONG be dead by now. If you want a success story, look to the PlayStation (it went from what? 0% to 70% market share?). About the only thing I could see counting as a success for MS is that they created a powerful brand name.

.Sis

I wouldn't underestimate the value of a powerful brand. In fact, of all the people in this business, I imagine Sony have the most interest in maintaining a powerful brand - Sony make most of their money, especially in electronic goods, based on the perceived quality of the Sony brand.

I don't think Xbox has the same recognition, but they're working on it. As for Nin

 

[scooby_dooby]

If Xbox was produced by any other company, it would LONG be dead by now. If you want a success story, look to the PlayStation (it went from what? 0% to 70% market share?). About the only thing I could see counting as a success for MS is that they created a powerful brand name.

.Sis

2 completely different scenarios. The word to describe PS2 in 2001 was domination, the fact MS has done what it's done against a monster like the PS had become is very impressive.

BTW, pretty much all of the xbox's best hits and exclusives made use of the HDD,
Halo
Halo 2
KOTOR
Fable
DOA3
Jade Empire
PGR
PGR2
Half-Life 2

Things like persistent environments, level streaming, room for huge game saves(kotor, JE), all these things were put to use to make better games for the xbox exclusive titles.

Many of these games would not be possible without a HDD in their current form, they would have to be cut down to some degree, just as if you removed some ram or downgraded the cpu clock speed, the game would still be possible, but it would be a lesser game.

 

[jpr27]

I think there is a deeper message here whether people are looking at the $299 to $399 debate going on here. As I mentioned in other threads people expected that the console would be at LEAST $299.

But MS themselves pushed the words of Xbox Live along with the HD will help give us a leg up on the next generation. Microtransaction, downloadable content, demos, map creation, etc. Even Oblivion Elderscrolls developer was touting as the Xbox 360 HD being one of the reasons to choose it for development. (We all know they "just" changed their stance on that) We want 1 billion people online. (not exact wording I know but something like that) What other conclusion should the "baseline comsumer" (hell even Hardcore gamers were shocked with this news) that the Xbox 360 would come with a HD. I could go on with examples but if anyone wants more read the E3 events. This shows at the very least in my opinion MS "purposly mislead or gave the impretion of a HD". Wireless controllers. Well this is the next generation we are talking about. (Not one mention of a wired controller that I have found before this. The exact opposite) These are just a few examples and if you did some digging you could find many more quotes. MS would of been better off charging $325 then $299 to include the HD in the core package to save it from the division of the MS community.

I think this whole pricing debate is sad. People are focuse on the wrong issue here. I just dont understand why people dont look at the "bait and switch tactics" that MS has pulled. All indications that came from MS themselves (and a few developers) mention the heavy use and capabilities of the HD. Im not mad about the $299 and I think many dont disagree on the pricing (ITS THE HD ISSUE). Yes $399 is a great price but its the methods and tactics MS that fuels the fire that is going right now. Should we all just quit complaining about it cause we are going to get the $399 package anyway? (I dont know about you but I'm not the type of person who likes being mislead) Man and people blamed Sony for pulling alot of crap during the hayday of the "Emotion Engine", to me this makes that look like a misunderstanding comparing what MS just pulled on us. At least Sony has warned us of higher prices and probably no HD, along with other feature changes so far with the PS3. And Im a big Xbox fan sheeeesh.

As for MS gaining ground on Sony ? I'm sure some people are ok with their tactics but seeing the division now in MS own community how long do you think it will take them to get it back now? They were looking to gain more market share in next gen consoles, I think they gave Sony even more marketing power against them and thats the last thing MS needs right now. Trust me Sony as we all know is a marketing machine and I'm sure they are just ready now to show that MS couldnt give what they promised speech. They will say that MS has just gave another reason why the Xbox 360 cannot compete with PS3. No HD (we told you the PS3 didnt need one look at MS) and wireless unless you pay extra and nothing to contend with Blue Ray unless you want to wait or have to buy another xbox 360 later on. If you wait till later for HD-DVD well you should just wait for PS3 and its Blue-Ray it will be out by then.

In the end MS put themselves in this position. If in your opinion many of you think its not that bad then your entitled to it but IMO MS just made it more difficult to gain market share and their credability (although its MS afterall) has sunk to the an all time low and sure is competing with Sony on the FUD end.

 

[Tap In]

there is no bait and switch when everything they promised is in the box.

People talked themselves into it being $299 ( i was expecting/hoping too) when it was never said that it would all come in the box at that price. It was first *officially* announced at $399 with all of the things they said it would have.

now if I go to the store and pay $399 and the box doesn't have everything they said it will and instead say I need to pay more to get it, then it is bait and switch.

Also, you do not need the HDD to play on Live (just a memory card)

 

[Sis]

2 completely different scenarios. The word to describe PS2 in 2001 was domination, the fact MS has done what it's done against a monster like the PS had become is very impressive.

I didn't say "PS2", I said PlayStation. Sony went from not being in the game industry to being the dominant player. That's success. They had the benefit of understanding consumer electronics, which they used to their advantage. MS has their understanding of software, which they use to their advantage. The two parrallel very closely, with differing outcomes.

BTW, pretty much all of the xbox's best hits and exclusives made use of the HDD,
Halo
Halo 2
KOTOR
Fable
DOA3
Jade Empire
PGR
PGR2
Half-Life 2

Things like persistent environments, level streaming, room for huge game saves(kotor, JE), all these things were put to use to make better games for the xbox exclusive titles.

I'm amazed that JE is on this list. It has some of the more unbearable load times. Fable too. I mean, just atrocious to the point of being unplayable.

Room for huge games saves? You really mean: room for unoptimized game saves. Seriously, there's no reason for KOTOR saves to be their size other than that their development house comes from a PC origin where you don't waste time optimizing the save game size.

Many of these games would not be possible without a HDD in their current form, they would have to be cut down to some degree, just as if you removed some ram or downgraded the cpu clock speed, the game would still be possible, but it would be a lesser game.

I don't think you actually have any proof that this is true. I won't debate the loading issue--even though God of War on the PS2 has better loading times than many Xbox games--but I will debate that the hard drive added anything of value beyond that.

.Sis

 

[one]

Yeah, the console have a multi-format reader, but games can only save on a MagicGate device (MS).
The other formats can be used for the multimedia feature of the console (musics/photos and I guess videos too).

Chatani seems to imply otherwise. Since PSP doesn't require MagicGate for saving games, PS3 will be the same. For online music purchase, it's another story.

Q. Judging from the message that you recommend PS3 as a digital media center, it's very natural, in a sense, that it has an SD card slot. But in a Sony-branded product as a default feature? It's unprecedent, isn't it?

A. To begin with we expect use with a digital camera as you can see from the fact that it has a CF slot too. Also, SD card is in many devices including mobile phones. Users will be annoyed if media have to be converted except for memsticks. Of course you want to put save data in all media types, don't you?

 

[seismologist]

Sounds like fans who were used to a console that loses billions of dollars at the manufacturer's expense are now discovering what a normal business model looks like.

Not a very smooth transition.

 

[Phil]

2 completely different scenarios. The word to describe PS2 in 2001 was domination, the fact MS has done what it's done against a monster like the PS had become is very impressive.

I think what others are trying to point out, is that if Sony had used the same amount of money that MS lost with Xbox, Xbox360 at this point would be pretty much non-exististant. Besides, 25% is pushing it a little - While they certainly start from ZERO marketshare to somewhere around 15-18%, you also have to factor in that at the same time, Sony is also improving on their last marketshare too. I think many sales on Xbox can in fact be attributed to ex loyal PC-fans that decided to buy an Xbox as there first console this generation.

BTW, pretty much all of the xbox's best hits and exclusives made use of the HDD,
Halo
Halo 2
KOTOR
Fable
DOA3
Jade Empire
PGR
PGR2
Half-Life 2

Things like persistent environments, level streaming, room for huge game saves(kotor, JE), all these things were put to use to make better games for the xbox exclusive titles.

Many of these games would not be possible without a HDD in their current form, they would have to be cut down to some degree, just as if you removed some ram or downgraded the cpu clock speed, the game would still be possible, but it would be a lesser game.

Hardly. Most of these games are from PC centric developers that were used to utilizing a harddrive for caching anyway. Having a HDD was merely making it easy for them instead of finding ways to stream content directly from the optical drive. There's nothing impressive about that nor any great achievement. I'll give you that tehre are some examples where developers made some good use of the harddrive, but caching and "own music lists" certainly isn't one of them.

In fact, for every game you listed above that in your terms "absolutely" required a harddrive, I can point out examples of games on PS2 of similar achievements without a harddrive. (Jak & Daxter for persistent environments comes to mind, Baulder's Gate with relative small saves of ~600KB that store each and every position of dead-characters througout the entire game).

 

[g35er]

The way some people are venting, it's as if they think MS is deliberately trying to screw them. Don't you think that MS would love, love, love for everyone to by the $400 system? More profit for them. They would rather not even sell a core system. It would be much easier for them logistically, marketing-wise, game development-wise to just have one sku.

The "customer choice" thing is just a smoke-screen. Remember, this is ultimately a business. The reality is they believe, correctly or incorrectly, that there are a significant enough # of people who would not buy a system for more than $300. So, in order for them to not lose sales, they feel forced to sell something at this price and a barebones system is the only way they could do it.

If the core system does not sell much, they might very well pull it out altogether and just sell one sku. The marketplace will ultimately decide of a core system is desired.

 

[Magnum PI]

digital convergence

remember the xbox was supposed to introduce us to a new era where the console would become less of a gaming thing and a sort of multimedia hub with content on demand.

the xbox2 was supposed to go further in that direction, did it ?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Memory Sticks are used for saving game son the PS3. You can buy either Sony's MS or Sandisk's as long as they support the MagicGate tech.
Sandisk's MS are also way cheaper than Sony's ones.

There's more MemStick developers appearing. I've seen Lexar, PNY and Fuji on eBuyer, and a Google digs up a generic fab as well...
http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/USB-flash-manufacturers/p/2000000003844/3000000149681/8842185541.htm

 

[function]

remember the xbox was supposed to introduce us to a new era where the console would become less of a gaming thing and a sort of multimedia hub with content on demand.

I don't remember this tbh. I remember MS stressing till they were blue in the face that it was a games console, and that they might later add some other other functionality, but it was always primarily going to be a games console. No-one believed them, and forumites insisted this wasn't the case, but it turned out it was.

They didn't even release a mouse or web browser for it, you had to pay extra for DVD playback and extra for software to transfer music from your PC. That doesn't strike me as anything approaching a mulitmedia hub with content on demand, I gotta say.

 

[Qroach]

Function has it right. I think a lot of people have short memories about stuff like that.

btw, that entire list of games that utilize the hard drive is bunk imo. All those games do is cache files on the harddrive. Thus can still be accomplised on xbox 360 as it's a flag you set in code from what I understand. It's not like games NEED to do that.

 

[Phil]

Function has it right. I think a lot of people have short memories about stuff like that.

btw, that entire list of games that utilize the hard drive is bunk imo. All those games do is cache files on the harddrive. Thus can still be accomplised on xbox 360 as it's a flag you set in code from what I understand. It's not like games NEED to do that.

It may be that simple from a code perspective, but it certainly isn't now that developers on Xbox360 WILL have to think about load-times without caching. On Xbox this was a non-issue since most stuff I would presume would have used the hdd even for non-trival things.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Anyone knows what is meant by this answer?

Q: Why is the hard drive so highly priced? A 20GB hard drive now a days goes for about 20-30... why $100? I believe this will deter alot of sales..
A: the 20 gb hard drive is a 2.5 inch user servicable drive and is more expense than a pc "crack the box" drive. it's one of the reasons we pushed to create a compelling premium bundle.

I don't understand what justifies the 2-3x external 2.5" HDD.

 

[Qroach]

but it certainly isn't now that developers on Xbox360 WILL have to think about load-times without caching. On Xbox this was a non-issue since most stuff I would presume would have used the hdd even for non-trival things.

Actually this statement is completely wrong. Loadtimes are an issue on every optical disc based console. Developers had to worry about this on xbox just as much as the other systems. only a handfull of xbox titles used disk caching from what I understand, but this doesn't prevent anyone from not worrying about long load times.

As we've been told numerous times, the hardrive in the xbox was under utilized by game developers.

 

[scooby_dooby]

The usefulness of a harddrive as a performance enhancing piece of hardware cannot be denied. It provides the ability to cache large amounts of data, allowing for full persistent worlds WITHOUT affecting the amount of available ram in the system.

Of course there are examples on the PS2 of persistent worlds, it's not as if a persistant world can't be done with RAM, but it reduces the amount of ram you have available, hinders your system performance, and because of that it doesn't happen hearly as often. It becomes a trade off which is not a good thing.

A harddrive is superior to a memory card in every single way and there is not a single argument I can understand as to why anyone would prefer or support using a flash memory card in such a powerful machine like these consoles in the year 2005. Nevermind the reduced loading times, pre-caching, and nifty features you can do, the performance advantage of allowing huge persistent worlds WITHOUT affecting RAM is reason enough that all consoles should have a HDD.

Do you really want developers to have to choose between their amount of RAM available and whether or not to have a persistent world? Every game should be like halo, every weapon, every vehicle, every gun, every grenade stays in place for huge distances, mercenaries, KOTOR, Mechassault 2, Fable, Elder Scrolls all shining examples of where the HDD allowed for full persistent environments without requiring that data to be stored in RAM wasting space.

Did you know Forza remebers every tire track ever left on every track throughout your career? Courses start off clean, and after a few months are completely marked up from your own turns and braking, now in my opinion that's cool! Mercenaries has huge environments that stretch for kilometres, and remembers every blown up building, statue, wall etc in the entire city. There are many games that have persistent worlds on XBOX, it's something I've become used to and was hoping would become a standard in the future.

People clamor they want NEXT-GEN real worlds where every bullet leaves a mark that stays, where bodies never move, with fully destructable environments that stay in place, well if we really want all that stuff to be STANDARD in gaming, these consoles need a HDD.