Business ramifications of piracy *spawn

Wasn't the removal of Linux the motivation for Geohot and fail0verflow to crack the PS3 in the first place? They have appeared to have taken some effort to ensure that what they have released hasn't made it easy to pirate games, the backlash could be that they release all of the exploits that they have held back on. Now that Sony has sued them, what's to stop them from releasing all of the keys and methods to obtain the keys if nothing else than to say "screw you" for the lawsuit.

These guys are pretty smart, I'm sure they can find ways to release everything either anonymously or through another group.

Motivation or weak excuse, for me it´s hard to differ. Without OtherOS i doubt that Geohot would have gotten so far as he did. In a sense, OtherOS was the first backdoor, and it was provided by Sony.

His actions lead to Sony removing it completely, again it would seem it was a weak excuse since there was plenty of Fat PS3´s in the wild with the OtherOS, so it would hardly stop Geohot from hacking, or others. But it surely made some people angry, mostly those that used the feature, of which i am pretty sure the hackers weren´t among :)

In any case, had Sony not provided OtherOS, itwould seem impossible, to get into the PS3.
Thanks to Geohots hack, the USB Jig was possible, at least it seems that without the original Geohot "glitch" hack, the USB Jig wouldn´t have been possible.
With the jig, the PS3 was essentially open to be played with, and now the hackers could easily get to to play.

I think that had Sony not removed OtherOS from the slim (and fat) there would be another excuse, like the graphics were bad, so we hacked it to get great graphics. And if the graphics had been alright, it would be "Blu-Ray playback" from Linux, etc etc..
 
Wasn't the removal of Linux the motivation for Geohot and fail0verflow to crack the PS3 in the first place? They have appeared to have taken some effort to ensure that what they have released hasn't made it easy to pirate games, the backlash could be that they release all of the exploits that they have held back on. Now that Sony has sued them, what's to stop them from releasing all of the keys and methods to obtain the keys if nothing else than to say "screw you" for the lawsuit.

These guys are pretty smart, I'm sure they can find ways to release everything either anonymously or through another group.

Well, only half the hackers were motivated b/c of the removal of OtherOS. Geohot started hacking back in early to mid 2009. Way before otherOS was removed and OtherOS removal was announced for slim.
http://www.ps3news.com/PS3-Hacks/apple-iphone-unlocker-geohot-begins-hacking-sonys-ps3/
505 days ago (from today, Jan 12th, 2011) is when geohot started hacking.

The fail0Verflow started once the OtherOS was removed.

As for the keys, everything has already been released. Sony is pretty much screwed on that front. Whether Sony likes it or not, all games (until a new firmware w/ new sdks are out) are pirate-able .
 
As for the keys, everything has already been released. Sony is pretty much screwed on that front. Whether Sony likes it or not, all games (until a new firmware w/ new sdks are out) are pirate-able .

As far as I know Geohot still hasn't released how he got access to the masterkey. That was one of the things that failoverflow didn't like when he released the key since he had used their discoveries in order to generate it. Has that changed and he's released his methods for doing that?

Regards,
SB
 
As a consumer, I bought a piece of hardware and I should be freely allowed to do what I want with it. Sony provides a service (PSN) which requires my hardware to be in compliance with their standards. If they detect that I'm out of complaince, then they are free to ban me from the service. I absolutely agree with that. However, there have no grounds to tell me what I can and can't do with the hardware I purchased. It's not a lease, it's a purchase. They will lose hard if they take the stance that "you bought the hardware and we dictate exactly how you use it."
 
How would that go with their rights involving software?
Running pirated versions still shouldn't fit into "do what you want with it"... and let's face it, at least 90% of the people interested in this possibility want to do just that.
 
This business seems to be based on the idea of selling people a leased machine. The whole business model is based off the fact that a console is locked down so they can extract money for producing it. So if/when people crack the security they threaten the console business model.

The issue here for Sony is that the people who would crack their box are the kind of people who own boxes from more than one console manufacturer. We've all heard of people who own both a hacked 360 and PS3 to play exclusive content on the latter and pirated media on the former. Infact I live with someone who does just that. So if you've got a hacked machine on the one hand, Xbox 360 is no longer so easy to hack on the other, then chances are good that the hardcore/core buyer who buys a disproportionate quantity of Sony software may infact cease buying. Even if Sony loses just a million boxes to piracy in the west, those million boxes would represent a large proportion of their best customers.

As a response I don't see banning people from PSN is going to be an effective deterent if the people already have access to Xbox Live (likely). Especially if the people they ban are already invested in a competitors content and multiplayer network. Beyond this, it would just encourage hackers to find workarounds in relation to the PSN/PS3 interaction which may unearth other security issues or perhaps enable widespread cheating and other such poor behaviour. So Sony really is damned either way at this point by the hacking community and thrashing around whilst caught in the net could just get them tangled up further.
 
How would that go with their rights involving software?
Running pirated versions still shouldn't fit into "do what you want with it"... and let's face it, at least 90% of the people interested in this possibility want to do just that.

You have to differentiate between the two. Modifying the hardware is/should be legal. Piracy is not legal.

We're assuming that 90% will use it for piracy only because in the past consoles generally have very limited use. With the PS3 and the homebrew community, you might have the potential for a very robust app ecosystem similar to what's available with Cydia on the iphone. I'm willing to see where that goes.

If it takes hacker to find the keys to allow for such an ecosystem, I'm all for it. To be fair, so far the hackers in question had been doing a great job of avoiding piracy and only working towards homebrew. I expect that to change with Sony's legal flexing.....
 
As a consumer, I bought a piece of hardware and I should be freely allowed to do what I want with it. Sony provides a service (PSN) which requires my hardware to be in compliance with their standards. If they detect that I'm out of complaince, then they are free to ban me from the service. I absolutely agree with that. However, there have no grounds to tell me what I can and can't do with the hardware I purchased. It's not a lease, it's a purchase. They will lose hard if they take the stance that "you bought the hardware and we dictate exactly how you use it."

They are not that stupid

18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(2)(C) – Confidential Information On Computer

18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(4) – Intent To Defraud And Obtain Value

18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(5)(A) – Knowing Transmission of Code

18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(5)(B) and (C) – Intentional and Reckless Damage And Loss

18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(6)(A) – Trafficking in Password

18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(7)(B) – Intent to Extort
 
You have to differentiate between the two. Modifying the hardware is/should be legal. Piracy is not legal.

We're assuming that 90% will use it for piracy only because in the past consoles generally have very limited use. With the PS3 and the homebrew community, you might have the potential for a very robust app ecosystem similar to what's available with Cydia on the iphone. I'm willing to see where that goes.

If it takes hacker to find the keys to allow for such an ecosystem, I'm all for it. To be fair, so far the hackers in question had been doing a great job of avoiding piracy and only working towards homebrew. I expect that to change with Sony's legal flexing.....

Always hope that a system being hacked such that it's virtually wide open will result in more Homebrew than pirating, but thus far it hasn't been the case historically.

Both the Dreamcast and Xbox were basically wide open with fairly healthy homebrew developement ecosystem. Yet the Dreamcast was arguably destroyed by rampant piracy. While on the other hand, Microsoft's willingness to sink cash and Xbox Live encouraging people not to pirate, IMO, prevented it from following.

Of course, the fact that PS3 already has a large and significant install base means it's not in danger of being destroyed by this, but I doubt more than a small fraction of potential people who hack their PS3 will use it only for Homebrew and avoid piracy. Unless there were measures in place to make piracy extremely difficult or have potential monetary consequences for pirating (MS banning machines from Xbox Live for example).

And I'm not sure banning will be as much of a deterrent on PS3 which appears to have a far smaller dedicated online base and has more single player only games. Even more so if homebrew develops an open source alternative to PSN, which then opens up the possibility of multiplayer over the internet without the use of PSN.

Regards,
SB
 
Legal battles are part of the busniess solutions to problems of competition and perceived unfair threats to business operations. Clearly Sony's legal gurus think they have more to work with here than the other console and phone hacks that haven't been successfully prosecuted, otherwise they surely wouldn't bother because they haven't a leg to stand on as there's so much precedent supporting the rights of consumers to open up access to run software not intended by the hardware manufacturer on said hardware.

Also fixing and patching the exploit, if at all possible, generally only delays future hacks. A successful prosecution would be a warning to future hackers that they may think what they are doing is above board, but they may be liable. Of course that won't stop hacking, but would you sit back, do nothing, and say, "well we can't stop them, and we can't win, so we'll do nothing at all, not even pursue the moral victory of getting a couple of them prosecuted"?

Edit: As for nationalities, Sony has arms in every market and can bring about proceedings as needed; no need for extradition.
To briefly reply your post, I agree with what RobertR1 said. I don't understand why so few companies seem to deal correctly with these weighty subjects - it really bugs me.

As a consumer, I bought a piece of hardware and I should be freely allowed to do what I want with it. Sony provides a service (PSN) which requires my hardware to be in compliance with their standards. If they detect that I'm out of complaince, then they are free to ban me from the service. I absolutely agree with that. However, there have no grounds to tell me what I can and can't do with the hardware I purchased. It's not a lease, it's a purchase. They will lose hard if they take the stance that "you bought the hardware and we dictate exactly how you use it."
If you buy a piece of hardware you can do whatever you want with it. There's nothing the law can do against that simple principle.

I mean that if I want to throw my PS3, 360 or Wii console on the floor, thus breaking it, there's nothing stopping me from doing so. If they don't want me to harm the console then Sony would have to make it unbreakable.

If I buy a PS3, 360 or Wii and I want to hack it then Sony and so on better make the console impossible to hack, because if not I am going to hack it pretty badly.

Two weeks after I bought my first PC, which costed 3.000€ back in 1995. :???: I opened it with a screwdriver just to see its components. I couldn't help curiosity. I left the screwdriver inside without realizing and when I tried to switch it on I fried some components. Of course none of the manufacturers of the components would be so keen on giving me new components because it was my mistake, and my choice, to rummage about in the innards of my PC.

The point is that the law can't do much about it if there's a flaw in a product -X360 DVD drive firmware, Wii security system, etc-. If the law wanted to punish me for raking through my PC and send me to some rehabilitation centre for lack of self control then they would also give me new components for free and rehabilitate me. It's the same with hacking. It makes no sense to me punishing someone because they hacked a hackeable system.

So now Sony's lawyers get to run around like maniacs who have been shit on way too many times lately and are fed up with it for some weeks and chase down hackers for special permission numbers that they only might get.
 
As a consumer, I bought a piece of hardware and I should be freely allowed to do what I want with it.

Absolutely true, but if you bought any console because you wanted to use it for anything besides the advertised features you are stupid (not you, but generally speaking)

The question is, is it ok to break encryption and get ahold of rootkeys that provides for access to Blu-Ray encryption, and PSP games and a way to get piracy going.

Is it comparable to stealing passwords? Where does software and hardware start in this, if i am using a stolen key get access to copyrighted software (firmware, graphics etc) to run my own software, is it ok?

I have tried to think of an example where getting access to hardware, via breaking in, could be compared.. still no luck :)
 
If you buy a piece of hardware you can do whatever you want with it. There's nothing the law can do against that simple principle.
That's true, and the legality of such hardware access is supported through numerous recent hardware cracks that haven't had follow up legal action, such as iOS jailbreaking. The legal issue here is something different, in what Sony are pursuing anyway. There are new laws, the DMCA for one, that protects digital IP, and Sony are saying these have been breached. If enabling whatever you want from your hardware requires violating copyright or other laws, the legal system has to decide who takes precedent, which requires a legal challenge.

Sony may be decided as in the wrong (and briefly looking at their complaints I don't agree with them) but it's in their rights to try to do something to protect their business interests, surely? There are other examples like the DS flash carts that have been deemed illegal (UK), despite just enabling homebrew, because such cards violate some laws. But such laws can vary from region to region based on where the legal powers favour - consumer rights or business rights. It's a legitimate action by Sony, to get an official ruling on whether society should or should not be allowed particular homebrew hacks.
 
If you buy a piece of hardware you can do whatever you want with it. There's nothing the law can do against that simple principle.

That's not correct. You can do whatever you want with it as long as you remain within the law. The government can set limits on what you can and can't do, but corporations can't (yet).
 
Things are heating up: Carnegie Mellon Professor Challenges Sony over Geohot/fail0verflow Lawsuit

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/GeoHot/

January 11, 2011:
Our friends at Sony are having another bad day: i.e., doing something breathtakingly stupid, presumably because they don't know any better. This time they're suing George Hotz for publishing PS3 jailbreak information, as reported by EnGadget, Attack of the Fan Boy, and inevitably, Slashdot. Hotz's jailbreak allows PS3 owners to run the software of their choice on a machine they have legally purchased. His site is geohot.com.
Free speech (and free computing) rights exist only for those determined to exercise them. Trying to suppress those rights in the Internet age is like spitting in the wind.
We will help our friends at Sony understand this by mirroring the geohot jailbreak files at Carnegie Mellon.

GeoHot Mirror
Click here for usage instructions.
Note to Sony lawyers: no doubt you're eager to rack up another billable hour by sending legal threats to me and my university. Before you go down that unhappy road, check out what happened the last time a large corporation tried to stop the mirroring of technical information here: The Gallery of CSS Descramblers. Have you learned anything in ten years?


David S. Touretzky
Research Professor of Computer Science
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
 
Saying source code as being a form of expression is a pretty big stretch, honestly. DMCA's garbage, but I'm not sure we should be fighting it with garbage arguments of our own.
 
That's not correct. You can do whatever you want with it as long as you remain within the law. The government can set limits on what you can and can't do, but corporations can't (yet).

This is the heart of the problem - Intellectual property vs real property rights.

Not many people realize that IP is actually a form of diminishig real property rights. IP, which can only be enforced by the coercion power of the government, does exactly this - sets limits to what you can do with your own property.

Lately, these limits have become more and more obtrusive, as in these days of technological progress it's harder and harder for corporations and governments to enforce this form of intellectual "property".
 
Groklaw has picked up on the lawsuit:

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110112115731533

In other words, if you did any of the things Sony lists in the complaint, Sony would like to add you to this litigation as a defendant to those already listed if it can find you.

Next Sony asks for money, called "damages", and any profits the defendants might have made, as well as statutory damages, trebled, under copyright law, plus interest, plus attorneys' fees and costs.

What does it mean? It means Sony wants you to stop messing with its stuff, and it's pulling out all the stops.
 
Saying source code as being a form of expression is a pretty big stretch, honestly. DMCA's garbage, but I'm not sure we should be fighting it with garbage arguments of our own.

You do realize that the only reason source code can by copyrighted is because it is a form of expression, right?
 
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