Bush meets the press

Clashman said:
Some people would consider appointing a segregationist to the U.S. Appeals Court the day after visiting Martin Luther King Jr's grave to be slightly divisive.
He only did that, because democrats wouldnt let the nominee have an up or down vote on the floor of the senate. They knew the guy was good enough to get the 60(pretty sure thats the number) of votes need to selected.

BTW can you point to an example of where Pickering was/acted as a segregationist since the 60's. Alot of people who grew up in that era might have some skeletons based on race, but that should not disqualify them if they have grown up. What dems really didnt like about Pickering was that he's a conservative judge who is pro-life.

later,
epic
 
RussSchultz said:
You mean when he holds true to values or appoints/nominates people who holds values that are contrary to you, he's divisive.

No, Russ. This is such a tired, boring argument. How much more divisive can you be than appointing a segregationist with "mixed feelings" about the one person, one vote system, the very day after visiting MLK's grave? He might as well have spit on it, or burned a cross nearby. This isn't just about values contrary to me. They're about values widely held within this country, and I know that's tough to get through your head, but it happens to be true.

BTW, one can be divisive on either the right or the left. I would say that Hugo Chavez would be an example of someone who's divisive on the left, while a Lula da Silva, (or god forbid even Clinton) would seem to me to be making strides at reconcilliation.

Of course he makes no effort to meet people in the middle, and the stem cell research or Gulf Coast drilling, or tax cut amount, or medicare compromises were complete flukes.

Bush initiated exactly ZERO of those so-called comprimises, and the vast majority of them were brought on by revolts within his own party. Hell, his own brother blocked the Gulf Coast drilling proposal. Making absolutely insane proposals and then backing down from them when it's obvious that all you have are fringe elements of the Republican Party on your side, (and maybe Joe Lieberman), maketh a unifier not.

Face it, he's divisive because of Florida/2000. It started the dance off wrong, and some folks have never forgiven him.

Face it, Russ. Florida sure as hell didn't help, but the situation has polarized immesurably since then. And the main reason behind that has nothing to do with Florida and everything to do with how he's conducted himself whilst in office, from the tax cuts, to Iraq, to Ashcroft, to Pickering, to the Arctic Wildlife Refuge, and on and on and on and on.

It certainly doesn't help that the media paints him as divisive, while strangely painting Dean as a uniter.

Now that's just bullshit. The media has never painted Dean as a uniter. In fact, Dean's current campaign problems stem in large part from media portrayal of him as divisive and fringe using misleading news footage to drive home that point over and over again.
 
Clashman said:
Bush initiated exactly ZERO of those so-called comprimises, and the vast majority of them were brought on by revolts within his own party. Hell, his own brother blocked the Gulf Coast drilling proposal. Making absolutely insane proposals and then backing down from them when it's obvious that all you have are fringe elements of the Republican Party on your side, (and maybe Joe Lieberman), maketh a unifier not...

...Face it, Russ. Florida sure as hell didn't help, but the situation has polarized immesurably since then. And the main reason behind that has nothing to do with Florida and everything to do with how he's conducted himself whilst in office, from the tax cuts, to Iraq, to Ashcroft, to Pickering, to the Arctic Wildlife Refuge, and on and on and on and on.
Amen. :)
 
For Epic:

Historians' Petition Against the Nomination of Charles Pickering, Sr.

NYT NEWS BULLETIN 10-31-03 "Senate Republicans failed on Thursday to overcome a filibuster blocking the vote on Charles W. Pickering's nomination to a federal appeals court seat."

This petition was first circulated last spring. It has once again received renewed attention now that Mr. Pickering's nomination has won the approval of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

President George W. Bush
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20500

Dear President Bush:

On behalf of eighty historians of the South and the African American experience?most of them teaching and writing in the South?we are writing to urge that you withdraw the nomination of Judge Charles Pickering, Sr. to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals.

As scholars and researchers who have spent our career teaching and writing about the American South, we believe the time has come to turn to the future. Unfortunately, the career of Judge Pickering reflects some of the most shameful aspects of the region?s history and he should be rejected for the following reasons.

1. Judge Pickering has been evasive and misleading in describing his personal history insofar as race relations in Mississippi are concerned.

In response to questioning about the Mississippi?s State Sovereignty Commission that was set up to spy on (and intimidate) advocates of civil rights, he claims he knew little of the agency. His sworn testimony is inconsistent with the following facts. As a state senator, he twice voted to continue funding the agency. Secondly, the work of the Commission was known to almost every adult Mississippian and it challenges credulity to believe that Judge Pickering, as a prominent political figure, was unaware of the organization and its workings. Third, his old law partner during the 1960s was the late Carroll Gartin, a passionate segregationist and?as Lieutenant Governor of Mississippi? a key member of the Commission. Lt. Governor Gartin was personally and directly involved in instigating investigations of ?subversive? Mississippians who were critical of segregation and racial discrimination. Fourth, when the Commission?s papers were made public, the public learned that Judge Pickering (then a state senator) had contacted the Commission to ask about materials they had on workers striking against the Masonite corporation in his hometown of Laurel in 1971 and 1972. When confronted with this discrepancy in 2001, Judge Pickering acknowledged he had contacted the Commission and explained that he was concerned about possible Ku Klux Klan infiltration of the union involved in the organizing drive. But the relevant Sovereignty Commission Memo of January 5, 1972 clearly shows that the concern was not over possible violence by the KKK, but over the involvement of the Southern Conference Education Fund, a civil rights organization that the memo describes as led by "known Communists."

Due to the questioning of Senator Edwards of North Carolina, members of the Senate are (or should be) aware of the facts involved in Judge Pickering?s intervention on behalf of a man convicted of burning a cross in Mississippi? an action that several independent legal ethics experts have called a flat-out violation of the ethics code for federal judges. But it is worth emphasizing that Judge Pickering acknowledged under questioning that this was the only time in his entire judicial career he had ever undertaken such an act of intervention.

Judge Pickering?s defenders point to his testimony against Klan leader Sam Bowers in 1967 (which consisted of affirming in three lines that Bowers had a bad reputation and taught Sunday School) as proof that he was, in Senator Mitch McConnell?s words, a man of ?great moral courage.? If he had taken that stand in the 1950s or early 1960s, this might be an accurate description. But this was 1967, not 1963. As historians familiar with the case have shown, the white leadership of Laurel had already turned against Bowers after the Klan started dynamiting Laurel businesses and threatened chaos. And it is worth noting that Judge Pickering explicitly said at the time that his opposition to Bowers in no way meant that he had slackened in his support for "our Southern way of life.? He still blamed "outside agitators" for stirring up "racial hatred."

2. Much of this might seem historically irrelevant were it not for the fact that Judge Pickering's record as a judge seems consistent with that personal history. When Senator Russell Feingold asked him during his confirmation hearings about the tactics used by Mississippi counties to keep African-Americans from voting in the 1960s, Judge Pickering responded that some counties were more ?progressive? than others in allowing them to vote. He seemed unaware of (and unconcerned about) the violence and harassment adopted or encouraged by local officials to keep blacks from voting as late as the mid-1960s.

His supporters note that the great majority of his decisions as a federal judge have been upheld on appeal. But the fact is that he has had twenty-six decisions overturned by a very conservative Fifth Circuit Court in roughly ten years on the bench. In fifteen of these reversals the Circuit Court, one of the more conservative in the nation, reversed Judge Pickering for ignoring or violating "well-settled principles of law.? A careful analysis shows that eleven of those 15 reversals involved civil rights, criminal procedure, labor issues or other fundamental constitutional protections. (In contrast, Judge Edith Clement, another Bush appointee recently confirmed to the Fifth Circuit, had only one similar reversal of this kind during her slightly shorter tenure as a district judge.)

What is particularly troubling is that Judge Pickering has expressed skepticism over such well-established principles as ?one person, one vote.? (In one opinion, he called the one person/one vote decision ?obtrusive,? and described it as a legal principle that legislatures have reluctantly learned they "must live with.") As a judge he has bluntly questioned the motivation of individuals suing under anti-discriminatory employment laws. ("When an adverse reaction is taken affecting one covered by such laws, there's a tendency on the part of the person affected to spontaneously react that discrimination caused the action,? he said on another occasion).

When Senator Edward Kennedy questioned him about his tendency to dismiss employment discrimination claims, Pickering replied that, since the EEOC resolved cases in which discrimination had actually taken place, those that reached the district court were generally without merit. (In reality, because of the EEOC?s massive backlog, the courts are often the only option for individuals suffering from discrimination.)

We need not return to Judge Pickering?s actions before he was appointed to the bench?his defense of anti-miscegenation statutes as a law student, his 1964 decision to leave the Democratic Party because it had ?humiliated? white Mississippians by supporting civil rights, or his anti-civil rights positions as a State Senator?in order to conclude that he would be unlikely to defend forcefully the civil rights of individuals in the Fifth Circuit. In the aftermath of Senator Trent Lott?s resignation as Senate Majority leader, we heard a great deal of rhetoric about the importance of insuring equal rights for all Americans. The elevation of Judge Pickering to the second highest court in the land is inconsistent with those rhetorical commitments.

Based upon his record as a Judge and his prior responses to questioning from members of the Judiciary Committee, we urge you to withdraw his nomination to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. Many of our citizens continue to suffer from the consequences of our nation?s long history of racial discrimination. We urge you to nominate only those individuals who have a clear record of commitment to the enforcement of civil rights laws as well as other legislation designed to protect the rights of our citizens as these rights are reflected in our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution. We do not believe that Judge Pickering meets that standard.

Sincerely yours:
...........
 
Of course: he doesn't compromise, and if he does, he was forced into it; and if he wasn't forced into it, he's doing it for political gain or some other ulteriour motives. Its apparent he can't do anything right, and if he does it was a mistake or fits into his grand scheme to take over the world.

Though in some ways, you're right--he has been a divisive president, though I'll simply have to disagree that the divisiveness was a result of 'how he conducted himself whilst in office', but how his detractors reacted to his policies. While its a somewhat fine line, I think its important to note.

He's not out there beating the stump on cutting taxes for the rich and oppressing the poor, he's trying to cut taxes to stimulate the economy. Who pays 90% of the taxes? The people who are in the upper 50% of the income curve. But all of his detractors are using the boogieman of class warfare to describe his actions as divisive, claiming "tax cuts for the rich, and none for the poor", when quite frankly, there's no taxes left to cut from the poor.

We could then talk about drilling in ANWR, of which there is apparently no compromise offered from opponents. There's an energy bill still languishing because of ANWR(well, that and MTBE liability waivers). Of course, its not the opponents refusing to compromise.
 
RussSchultz said:
Of course: he doesn't compromise
Right, which is what makes him sooo damned divisive! The man came into office from the most hotly contested and wrongly decided elections in history and I remember him saying how he was going to reach across to the other party to unite us...

...he did reach across to the other party, to grab them by the nuggers and say "My way or the highway, and if you don't like it your a traitor!". :devilish:

Though in some ways, you're right--he has been a divisive president, though I'll simply have to disagree that the divisiveness was a result of 'how he conducted himself whilst in office', but how his detractors reacted to his policies. While its a somewhat fine line, I think its important to note.
No. The reactions to the policies were reactions to the heavy-handed and draconic ways in which he strong-armed his policies into law without any compromise. That's kind of linked to the whole, "how he conducted himself in office".

You can be a royal prick without saying bad things about your opponents, 'specially when you're in pretty much complete control. :rolleyes:

He's not out there beating the stump on cutting taxes for the rich and oppressing the poor, he's trying to cut taxes to stimulate the economy. Who pays 90% of the taxes? The people who are in the upper 50% of the income curve. But all of his detractors are using the boogieman of class warfare to describe his actions as divisive, claiming "tax cuts for the rich, and none for the poor", when quite frankly, there's no taxes left to cut from the poor.
No, he ain't stumping it anymore since he already did it. His actions ARE tax cuts for the rich and none for the poor, I really don't see how you can bill it as anything else. :(

Did you know he's the first president to ever LOWER taxes during a war? Spending is going thru the roof and he's cutting taxes, where is the logic? :|

We could then talk about drilling in ANWR, of which there is apparently no compromise offered from opponents. There's an energy bill still languishing because of ANWR(well, that and MTBE liability waivers). Of course, its not the opponents refusing to compromise.
Yeah, the issue is "should we or shouldn't we"...it's kind of a yes/no situation. And gee it ain't like Bush might have some kind of secret agenda, be doing a payback to a special interest, or he or some collegues might not stand to gain financially from such a move...

The man is a disgrace to our country Russ, why are you trying to defend him?
 
Of course, now I get it. If we don't capitulate to a radical, right-wing agenda, then we're being divisive. It's not his fault for relentlessly pushing the country into unjustified war, cutting spending on public education and healthcare while giving tax breaks to the wealthiest individuals and corportations, rolling back civil rights gains, etc; it's OUR fault for opposing him. It all makes so much sense now.

Why didn't you just chime in "un-american, Bush/America-hating, (because they're one in the same, you know), traitors" while you're at it.
 
Clashman said:
Of course, now I get it. If we don't capitulate to a radical, right-wing agenda, then we're being divisive. It's not his fault for relentlessly pushing the country into unjustified war, cutting spending on public education and healthcare while giving tax breaks to the wealthiest individuals and corportations, rolling back civil rights gains, etc; it's OUR fault for opposing him. It all makes so much sense now.
Damn it. I make a demalionesque page and a half quote answering post and Clashman comes along and sums up and expresses my feeling better in 3 sentences. :rolleyes: :LOL:

Nice post Clash, thanks for better expressing my feelings for me. :)
 
RussSchultz said:
Natoma said:
I liked the part about it not being the existance of weapons, or weapons programs, but merely the capacity to make weapons that took us to war. Yup, the cycle of lowered expectations continues. I can only shake my head and hope for the slow and steady implosion to continue right through election day.
Uh, I think the capacity was the weapons programs, which Kay has reported to be real and not missing in action like the actual weapons themselves.

One can have the capacity, i.e. the will, to get weapons, but not have a weapons program. That was the semantical game that Bush used yesterday, in conjunction with prior comments from himself and Colin Powell after Kay came out saying that no weapons existed after 1997, and the programs themselves were all but nonexistant after 1998.
 
You obviously missed the sarcasm in the first paragraph of my response. First, somebody says he doesn't compromise, then I show he did. Then they say it was because he was forced into it, at which point I continued the line of reasoning to its eventual destination of 'he's only doing it for political gain'. Well, duh. You can apply this to any two groups coming to agreement. People only compromise when they have to. That doesn't make you divisive.

My contention is that it isn't Bush's administration who is being divisive, but the opposing party who use division as a means of gaining political power. They purposefully underscore things like 'draconion means' or 'radical agenda', whether or not its true, because their consituency laps it up. They use divisive politics to attempt to undermine the support that exists and play to the previously set conceptions to amplify them.

And you're sitting here and doing it again. You play to class warfare to assert your agenda. Of course his tax cuts return more money to the rich than to the poor--but thats because the "rich" pay the lion's share of the taxes. You cannot cut what you don't have.

Ignoring that, the tax cuts have helped the poor. More and more families are being removed from the tax rolls entirely. http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030619-120558-9253r.htm

But beyond that, you attack the need for tax cuts, as if they're some sort of handout to the rich. As some of us believe, tax cuts stimulate the economy. A stimulated economy grows and provides jobs, which helps people who don't have jobs, and those of us that do have upward wage pressure.

But I guess its just easier to call it a handout to the rich and special interests, rather than understand the mechanics behind the decisions. AND THAT IS WHERE THE DIVISIVENESS COMES FROM! Rather than competing against the policies with logic, it gets attacked with ad hominems.

Reform immigration policies? Bush is just pandering.

Homeland security? Bush is big brother.

Iraq? For oil!

Afghanistan? FOR OIL!

Bush is doing this, Bush is doing that. Never any discussion on the pros and cons of the topic, but emotive plays and demonization of the motives.
Yet he's the one who's the divisive one.

Feh. Its apparent a disgrace to our country is anything you disagree with, and your play to state it as fact and ask why I'd defend a disgrace is just another of these emotive means of demonizing your opponents.
 
Natoma said:
One can have the capacity, i.e. the will, to get weapons, but not have a weapons program. That was the semantical game that Bush used yesterday, in conjunction with prior comments from himself and Colin Powell after Kay came out saying that no weapons existed after 1997, and the programs themselves were all but nonexistant after 1998.

I would love to rob Bill Gates and keep a relatively small fraction of his immense capital for myself, he wouldn't even notice. I have a plan in my head. Sadly i don't have the resources to do anything.

Will i get the FBI on my doorstep tomorrow?
 
Natoma said:
One can have the capacity, i.e. the will, to get weapons, but not have a weapons program. That was the semantical game that Bush used yesterday, in conjunction with prior comments from himself and Colin Powell after Kay came out saying that no weapons existed after 1997, and the programs themselves were all but nonexistant after 1998.

More damning is that the intelligence community was telling them that; thus was born the OSP, a pack of neocons, to give the administration the spin-washed 'evidence' it needed to attack a dictator tainted as a supporter of religious extremists, the very man we ourselves supported as a secular counter-balance to such extremists in the region.
 
RussSchultz said:
You play to class warfare to assert your agenda.
I ain't fucking playing to class warfare Russ, I'm fighting a fucking class warfare!

Bush is totally fighting the side of big business and the upper-class, TOTALLY! How can you can accuse me of playing to class warfare when we got a fucking Emperor in the White house is just beyond me! :oops:

Of course his tax cuts return more money to the rich than to the poor--but thats because the "rich" pay the lion's share of the taxes. You cannot cut what you don't have.
Then don't cut it, simple.

Feh. Its apparent a disgrace to our country is anything you disagree with, and your play to state it as fact and ask why I'd defend a disgrace is just another of these emotive means of demonizing your opponents.
The way that Bush has been running our country IS a disgrace Russ, most of the civilized world seems of a like mind on that lately. :(

I'm embarressed to be an american lately, I don't like many things our country is doing. :(
 
RussSchultz said:
Bush is doing this, Bush is doing that. Never any discussion on the pros and cons of the topic, but emotive plays and demonization of the motives.[/b] Yet he's the one who's the divisive one.

Feh. Its apparent a disgrace to our country is anything you disagree with, and your play to state it as fact and ask why I'd defend a disgrace is just another of these emotive means of demonizing your opponents.

And yet you don't hesitate to say someone else has drunk the Kool-aid, or that Bush's car is running on oil stolen from Iraq. The minute someone disagrees with you, Russ, you generally make some snide, condescending remark that's completely unnecessary. Fairly ad hominem if you ask me.
 
John Reynolds said:
RussSchultz said:
Bush is doing this, Bush is doing that. Never any discussion on the pros and cons of the topic, but emotive plays and demonization of the motives.[/b] Yet he's the one who's the divisive one.

Feh. Its apparent a disgrace to our country is anything you disagree with, and your play to state it as fact and ask why I'd defend a disgrace is just another of these emotive means of demonizing your opponents.

And yet you don't hesitate to say someone else has drunk the Kool-aid, or that Bush's car is running on oil stolen from Iraq. The minute someone disagrees with you, Russ, you generally make some snide, condescending remark that's completely unnecessary. Fairly ad hominem if you ask me.
Yeah, and besides that I've been completely acid free since somewhere around 94-95! :(
 
Joe DeFuria said:
digitalwanderer said:
Why? Bush IS divisive and partisan as hell, he deserves some tearing down.

I don't see how.

While Bush is a principled leader. That, in and of itself, is not what I see causing the divisvness.

I challenge you to find a quote or sound-bit where bush had any negative comments to say about "the other party" or individuals in that party.

Now, look at the reverse...the Kennedys, Daschles, Gephardts, and just about any democrat leader or candidate has been personally attacking Bush.

You can disagree with Bush and his policies, but still be respectful in doing so. Or, you can go and create conspiracy theories about motives, etc.

Bush touched on that in the interview: he basically said that he simply cannot control what "others" do or say about him...and he's learned to deal with that / accept it a long time ago. He has certain and strong principles that guide him, and he can tell us that all he wants, but opponents in the political arena will always try to cook up some "motive".

There's no need to act "unpresidential" when you have the rest of your party doing it for you by proxy. ;)
 
RussSchultz said:
You obviously missed the sarcasm in the first paragraph of my response. First, somebody says he doesn't compromise, then I show he did. Then they say it was because he was forced into it, at which point I continued the line of reasoning to its eventual destination of 'he's only doing it for political gain'. Well, duh. You can apply this to any two groups coming to agreement. People only compromise when they have to. That doesn't make you divisive.

I understood the sarcasm completely, Russ. It's just a stupid and ineffectual argument.

My contention is that it isn't Bush's administration who is being divisive, but the opposing party who use division as a means of gaining political power. They purposefully underscore things like 'draconion means' or 'radical agenda', whether or not its true, because their consituency laps it up. They use divisive politics to attempt to undermine the support that exists and play to the previously set conceptions to amplify them.

No Russ. Bush's policies mark a radical departure from the previous status quo in regards to spending, gutting public services, militarism, and the like. We use the words "radical agenda" because that's what it is, a radical departure from what had existed previously, and which had been established by decades of social struggle.

And you're sitting here and doing it again. You play to class warfare to assert your agenda. Of course his tax cuts return more money to the rich than to the poor--but thats because the "rich" pay the lion's share of the taxes. You cannot cut what you don't have.

The rich damn well deserve to pay the lion's share of the country's taxes. They're the ones who benefit most from the way society is currently organized, and therefore are in it's greatest debt.

Ignoring that, the tax cuts have helped the poor. More and more families are being removed from the tax rolls entirely. http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030619-120558-9253r.htm

"Help" is measured in more ways than simply paying or not paying taxes. The damage to public infrastructure such as schools and health systems, (which could well take years to fix), will harm poor and working class people far more than any supposed benefits they'll recieve from not paying taxes.

But beyond that, you attack the need for tax cuts, as if they're some sort of handout to the rich. As some of us believe, tax cuts stimulate the economy. A stimulated economy grows and provides jobs, which helps people who don't have jobs, and those of us that do have upward wage pressure.

Some people still believe the world is flat. Doesn't mean they're right. Investing that money into public infrastructures would have done far more to stimulate the economy than simple tax cuts, as it would have increased discretionary spending potential in those most likely to spend it.

But I guess its just easier to call it a handout to the rich and special interests, rather than understand the mechanics behind the decisions. AND THAT IS WHERE THE DIVISIVENESS COMES FROM! Rather than competing against the policies with logic, it gets attacked with ad hominems.

I understand the actual mechanisms behind the decisions perfectly, as well as the simple explanations you give to them. Just because you throw out an explanation of a phenomenon does not make the explanation the correct one. Perhaps it's just easier for you to attack the ad hominems themselves rather than the logic and reasoning behind them.
 
I'm sorry if my discussion style offends. I don't mean to be offensive, but only mildly humorous and/or tongue in cheek. Your response to the oil from iraq comment wasn't quite what I was aiming for, honestly. Humorous hyperbole doesn't come through well in written form.
 
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