Are there not already games on Xbox360 that run better SD resolution than at their standard HDTV resolution? Given that difference (720p/480p is greater than 12.5 I believe) and the associated performance implications, I think it would be better to gauge the acceptance of such practices among Xbox360 owners' buying practices.
[B3D Article] "Ripping off the veil: The mysterious PS3 hardware scaler exposed"
- Thread starter Arun
- Start date
Well, yes, in a way.
Since the PS3 is capable of digital output, and if your HDTV panel's native resolution is 720p and/or your TV set features of a 1:1 pixel mapping function, you may indeed prefer a non scaled 1:1 picture, instead of the scaled one.
If your HDTV panel native resolution is higer than 720p and you do not have a 1:1 pixel mapping function --nor you don't want to have a letterboxed output, resulting from a 1:1 mapping of a 720p picture on a 1080p set--, then in this case, you're better off running some tests on your own to determine what give you the better perceived image quality to you.
liolio, I think somewhere you've tripped yoruself up in the understanding of this scaler. If by performance you mean framerate and/or rendering beyond the scaling itself, the performance the performance hit is *already* zero. That's what having a hardware scaler is all about. But to use the scaler, such that it can output at 1080, devs will also need to support a resolution like 940x1080 or above. Support for that higher resolution will be slightly more taxing than support for 720p, but as mentioned, it's simply a way to let 1080i-native televisions enjoy an HD signal as well.
I doubt devs considering this support will suddenly change course to make it their primary supported resolution; rather, on games where it is supported, should it result in any sort of performance slowdown that will probably just be an accepted side effect for that resolution support. But I doubt the hit experienced in many titles would be material.
It is all plus and no negative. At the same time it's not the ideal, but it is a good step forward relative to what the situation was prior.
The 'update' is on the developer SDK side, not the PS3 client side. Resistance could in theory take advantage of this, but it would require the devs going back and building in support for 940x1080. This could be distributed online possibly as an update were they to do it, and it could also be incorporated into the game prior to the Euro launch for the Euro version.
But I think to avoid disappointment, I would view it as something future titles might incorproate, rather than something current titles will be retroactively patched to address.
There's a scaler, but right now the 'unlocked' features are horizontal-scaling only. That's why to take advantage of it, devs need to target a secondary resolution in addition to 720p. That resolution is then scaled (horizontally) to 1080.
To be clear a lot of the mystery concerning the physical chip itself (where it resides, full characteristics, ettc...) is still that: a mystery. Just be glad that Vysez was able to get the info he did and bring it to the people!
Hopefully those details will be forthcoming though. I know I myself am obsessed with the SCC-inclusion, and this feels a similar chase.
Has there been something said about that?
Personally I would assume that the app targets a single render resolution and then the scaler produces the final resolution (whether that be 1:1, upscaled or downscaled to SD).
It has to be, otherwise the data cant be transmitted over HMDI ?
A lot of games render to different framebuffer sizes when they render in HD or SD.
I think you got this backwards, how much is it compared to native 1920 x 1080, which was the only choice before, or paying with a hefty ram usage.. ?
how can i take this backward when i've stated tthat that is an improvement but still far from perfect.
Both systems 360/ps3 are better suit for output at 720P.
Dev still have to deal with 12.5% more pixels no matter how your try to spin it, when it will come to multiplateform game (uposely running at 720p in native mode) if they want to aim at all the consumers, or some consumers will suffer from some kind of downgrade.
Every system in the world is better suited for 720p vs 1080p; easier is easier.
But that doesn't mean you just stay there, else why even move up to 720p?
What's offered here is an additional option, nothing more or less. No one's taking anything away from you precious 720p performance liolio.
720p will still be 720p, and games targeted to that won't be 'dumbed down' to any noticable extent just for the sake of 940x1080.Only in this console war can "12.5% more pixels" be made out to be a problem when the other solution was NO 1080i support/twice the pixels or lots of ram. Afaik 12.5% wont be a problem for the RSX it seems more than capable.
I think what liolio is saying is that XB360 can scale 720p at no disadvantage. On PS3 devs have to target 960x1080 to support the full range of TVs, which means PS3 games have a 12% penalty over XB360.
I think what's missed here is that for those people who suffer a '12% downgrade', the alternative is a percentage of gamers who have to use SDTV resolutions because their TVs don't support 720p. If all TVs supported 720p, devs could target that and not worry about rendering to 960x1080. This latter option is a best fit, until full scaling is supported.
Back to the article, I saw it referenced in the GameTrailers forums. I have to say it was nice to see the basics on backbuffers and frontbuffers included, as it makes the technology a little more accessible to the 'layman.' B3D was referenced as a technical source. We definitely need a neutral, intelligent technical reference site, since everywhere else seems to be backing some horse or other. It's bad enough forumites taking one side or other from info, but when the info is tilted in the first place...
So good job on the article......but...
...why no comment on downscaling? Is that in there? Is there the option of 'free' supersampling if rendering to higher res buffers like 1920x480? Would that just be too whacky and not something to be implemented until vertical scaling is added?
See though, in a sense targeting 960x1080 as the native res is not going to be the ideal. That will likely be a second suported res on top of native 720p. This is because within the console, 960x1080 cannot be downscaled to 720p (horizontal only remember). You could kick it to the TV scaler to accept as a 1080p/1080i signal, and if the TV is 720p native it will take it from there, but... I don't know, I suspect that 720p will remain the baseline and support for these modes will 'above and beyond.'
That or perhaps they'll become the out-and-out norm to reach 1080 in all titles, but I think we'll need to better judge PQ effects before that happens.
I personally think that 1080i should be ignored, and I *am* one of the affected class! But here we are anyway, and it's always nice to learn a little mroe about the architecture. It's hard to know whether full scaling ever will be supported also. And I mean only in PS3 games; software emulated PS1/PS2 and media playback clearly all enjoy the unlimited possibilities of Cell.
If this is the end result of all of Sony's hype for 1080p on PS3, it isn't funny. It's technology scrambling to match marketing pomp just so that more PS3 game boxes will have that all-important "1080p" checkbox on the back.
"Sony Playstation 3! Full HD! 1080p! 1080p!
...but we never said what the horizontal resolution would be!"
"Sony Playstation 3! Full HD! 1080p! 1080p!
...but we never said what the horizontal resolution would be!"
That's a fairly bizarre read, it seems to me. The target here clearly seems to be to help out 1080i-only older HDTVs, because they flat out can't support 720p. . .not some grandiose 1080p marketing checkbox shell game.
are there much merits to go 1080p now???
i mean, wouldn't it increase dev costs to produce larger textures etc, as well as the fact that not many people care about whether a tv is 1080p or 720p. they would be happy as far as they know that its a HD, and i frankly couldn't see difference between 1080p tv and 720p tv when a 1080p video clip was played on both tellys, with same screen size
i think they should move into 1080p in 2-3 years time
i mean, wouldn't it increase dev costs to produce larger textures etc, as well as the fact that not many people care about whether a tv is 1080p or 720p. they would be happy as far as they know that its a HD, and i frankly couldn't see difference between 1080p tv and 720p tv when a 1080p video clip was played on both tellys, with same screen size
i think they should move into 1080p in 2-3 years time
It is a bizarre read, yes, but I'm trying to make sense of why only this one dimension was made scalable. To my mind, if alleviating the 1080i problem were the goal it would be more straightforward with a 1920x540 buffer that maps naturally to 1080i instead of this weird "framebuffer on its side" solution.
