Technical question regarding scaling in PS3 games.

[Shifty Geezer]

Fact of the matter is, the vast majority of HDTVs installed in homes DO NOT support 1080p inputs.

1080p isn't the issue. Most games aren't rendered at 1080p. XB360 didn't support 1080p output for a while too but was never a problem platform. The problem is TV sets that don't support 720p, sets which only support 1080i. For some bizarre reason the designers of the PS3 didn't think to add scaling and suitable 1080i output but left it to TVs to do, which was a ridiculous short-sight for such a famous CE brand!

Aside from having arguably better image quality than the 720p LCD TVs that you see all over the place nowadays, there are probably still a ton of people who use CRT TVs still.

We've never had real figures on that though, so it's hard to gauge impact. how many sets are there out that that don't support 720p? Every TV sets for years has support the 720p standard

 

[tuna]

HD Ready means that your TV should be able to deal with at least both 720p and 1080i, not 1080p.

Yeah, you are correct. I made a mistake, I thought the "HD ready" logo meant that the TV has to accept 1080p but the TV only has to accept 1080i.

 

[deepbrown]

I think that's a little unfair on buyers. When many bought these HD TVs, they didn't know what the future tech was going to require. Neither did the people making them. I don't think it's anyone's fault exactly, rather just an unfortunate consequence of humanity being unable organise itself effectively. The companies do confuse matters too. In the EU a standard was introduced so buyers would know what TVs are suitable. In the US that wasn't the case, and no-one had reason to suspect the tech they were buying wouldn't work with future consoles. Never before have we had consoles that don't just plug into a TV and work - things have suddenly become complicated. Consumer pioneers should be aware that they really are taking a gamble getting in first, but not everyone who's got the cash together for a new, satisfying purchase has followed other markets or been burned before to know this. Because of that, supporting those who made early, not so great decisions, is a big plus-point for manufacturers. You can argue Sony's output options were reasonable for current tech, but MS's choices are far more friendly and encouraging.

Well neither did HD-DVD buyers - that's what you get for jumping in so early.

And the percentage of HDTV's that don't support 720p I expect is in the region of 2%. Still thousands of people...but well...what HD-DVD owners do with their players?

 

[deepbrown]

You guys are just plain WRONG. 1080i was just as much an HD standard as 720p was back in the early days of HDTV's inception. In fact, 1080i is as much an HD standard as 720p is now. 1080p is the future de-facto standard. So all of us who bought our HDTVs a couple years ago (I don't think 2004 is such an unreasonable, early adopter, "olde days" amount of time) aren't the ones that made a "bad purchasing decision" just because ONE SINGLE DEVICE (the PS3) doesn't work with it.

Second vital point that you must all realize: EVERY HI-DEF DEVICE SUPPORTS 1080i. EVERY ONE. That is, every HD device up until the PS3's FAULTY hardware came out. The blame isn't on certain people's TVs for not supporting every HD standard. The blame lies squarely on the PS3's lack of a scaler and consequential lack of support for the 1080i and 1080p HDTV standards. The PS3 is the odd one out here, NOT our 1080i TVs.

Again, to reiterate, EVERY HD device in history supports 1080i, EXCEPT the PS3. I'm talking about DirectTV receivers, cable set top boxes, the XBOX 360, OTA receivers... and so on and so forth. Fact is, the PS3 is the one at fault here; NOT our "outdated and poor-purchasing decision" 1080i HDTVs. The PS3 is the broken, faulty, "obsolete" link in the chain. Don't act like all of us 1080i HDTV owners "had it coming" or are "screwed" in HDTV land because we don't support 720p and thus can't use ANYTHING. The only thing we can't use is the PS3. Period. EVERYTHING ELSE works like a charm.



And here we go with the TYPICALLY condescending, naive, misinformed statements again about our "crappy" TVs that don't support 720p or 1080p. Fact of the matter is, the vast majority of HDTVs installed in homes DO NOT support 1080p inputs. I have a 42" LCD that I bought about a year and a half ago. That's not a very long time, and it DOES NOT support 1080p! It's a popular model and a common, popular name brand TV. FACT: Most LCDs and HDTVs up until about a year and a half ago DID NOT SUPPORT 1080p INPUTS. You're going to call my TV, and all the others, a "crappy TV" because it's such an "old, outdated" piece of junk, right? Because I bought it such a long time ago (1 year)?

Same thing about no support for 720p; most HDTVs that don't support 720p inputs are CRT HDTVs, which were extremely prevalent and popular from around 2004 and prior. Aside from having arguably better image quality than the 720p LCD TVs that you see all over the place nowadays, there are probably still a ton of people who use CRT TVs still.

It's just so irritating to see all these persistently naive and flat-out incorrect remarks by all these HDTV newcomers who really don't know a whole hell of a lot about HDTVs, or their history, prior to them buying their single lone LCD-TV to accompany their next-gen console purchase about a year or so ago. You know who you are.

Give us a list of the games that don't support 1080i and so move to 480p by default.

 

[kyleb]

Considering how many PS3 games don't support 1080i, that is a lot of work to just up and demand out of someone else. If you are so interested in seeing a list, you are probably going to have to make it yourself.

 

[Rumbullion]

Give us a list of the games that don't support 1080i and so move to 480p by default.

GAMES THAT CURRENTLY DO NOT SUPPORT 1080i/p output and contact info when known.
Condemned 2 (box says 1080i, but it's a lie...)
SEGA Superstars Tennis
Rainbow Six Vegas 2
WWE SmackDown! vs. Raw 2008
Time Crisis 4
Major League Baseball 2k8
Army of Two
Lost: Via Domus
Lost Planet: Extreme Condition
Devil May Cry 4 (demo and full)
Turok (demo)
NFL Tour
The Club (Demo)
Blacksite: Area 51
The Orange Box
Burnout: Paradise
MTX vs ATV Untamed
Blazing Angels
Kane and Lynch: Dead Men
Toy Home
Surf's Up
TimeShift http://sierra.com/en/home/support/sierra_support.html
Resistance: Fall of Man mailto:info@insomniacgames.com
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion http://www.bethsoft.com/contact.html
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion Game of the Year Edition http://www.bethsoft.com/contact.html
Elder Scrolls IV: Shivering Isles http://www.bethsoft.com/contact.html
GripShift http://forums.gripshiftgame.com/sendmessage.php
MotorStorm - http://www.evos.net/contact-us.aspx
NHL 2k7 mailto:techsupport@2ksports.com
NHL 2k8 mailto:techsupport@2ksports.com
MLB 2k7 mailto:techsupport@2ksports.com
The Biggs mailto:techsupport@2ksports.com
Hot Shots Golf (Demo) mailto:staff@claphanz.co.jp
Armored Core 4 http://www.sega.com/support/support_csonline.php
F.E.A.R. http://www.sierra.com/en/home/support/sierra_support.html
Dynasty Warrior Gundam mailto:support@koei.com & mailto:support@namcobandaigames.com
BladeStorm: The Hundred Years' War mailto:support@koei.com
DiRT http://www.codemasters.com/support/contact.php
Stuntman: Ignition http://support.thq.com/system/web/view/selfservice/templates/FRAM
ELESS_THQ/ContactSupport.jsp
Conan (demo) http://support.thq.com/system/web/view/selfservice/templates/FRAM
ELESS_THQ/ContactSupport.jsp
Juiced 2: HIN http://support.thq.com/system/web/view/selfservice/templates/FRAM
ELESS_THQ/ContactSupport.jsp
SEGA Rally Revo http://www.sega.com/support/support_csonline.php
GI Jockey 4 (JP Demo) mailto:support@koei.com
Nucleus (aka bacterius) mailto:kuju@kuju.com
Go! Sports Ski (aka Feel Ski) http://www.yukes.co.jp/ <- jp site
Pro Evolution Soccer 2008 (UK Demo)
StrangleHold http://www.midway.com/rxpage/SupportCustomer.php *NOTE- 1080i misprint!
Need for Speed ProStreet
Sony:
Operation Creature Feature
AquaVita / Auquatopia
Eye of Judgement (SCE Japan)
Eye Create
Formula 1 Racing (SCEE Liverpool)
Lemmings (Demo) (SCEE and TEAM 17) Team 17 contact- http://www.team17.com/support.html?subsection=ticket
Genji: Days of the Blade (SCEA and Game Republic) Game Republic Site (jp only) - http://www.gamerepublic.jp/
Folklore (SCEI and Game Republic) Game Republic Site (jp only) - http://www.gamerepublic.jp/
FolkSoul (aka folkore) Demo (SCEA and Game Republic) Game Republic Site (jp only) - http://www.gamerepublic.jp/
Untold Legends: Dark Kingdom (SOE) - Requires registration http://help.station.sony.com/cgi-bin/soe.cfg/php/enduser/acct_log
in.php?p_next_page=ask.php
Heavenly Sword (SCEA and Ninja Theory) http://www.ninjatheory.com/index.php?option=com_contact&Itemi
d=3

UbiSoft:
Splinter Cell: Double Agent
Enchanted Arms
Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter 2

Activision:
https://activision.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/activision.cfg/php/enduse
r/ask.php?p_sid=dhJYz4Bi&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&am
p;amp;amp;p_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHNvcnQ9JnBfcm93X2
NudD03ODMxJnBfcHJvZHM9JnBfY2F0cz0mcF9wdj0mcF9jdj0mcF9zZWFyY2hfdHl
wZT1hbnN3ZXJzLnNlYXJjaF9ubCZwX3BhZ2U9MQ
Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock
Spiderman 3
Call of Duty 3 <-NOTE- Many boxes have 1080i support "misprint"!**
Tony Hawk's Proving Ground

EA games: Requires registration- https://account.ea.com/login/napd-login.jsp?locale=en_US&site
=eaco&skin=eacom&parsid=3383823
Def Jam Icon
Madden 2007
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 08
Fight Night Round 3
The Godfather: The Don's Edition
Need for Speed: Carbon
NCAA Football 08
Madden NFL 08
Nascar 08
NHL 08
The Simpsons Game
NBA Live 08
FIFA Soccer 08
Rock Band (also support@harmonixmusic.com)

[http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=ps3&message.id=1543717#M1543717]

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

You guys are just plain WRONG. 1080i was just as much an HD standard as 720p was back in the early days of HDTV's inception. In fact, 1080i is as much an HD standard as 720p is now. 1080p is the future de-facto standard. So all of us who bought our HDTVs a couple years ago (I don't think 2004 is such an unreasonable, early adopter, "olde days" amount of time) aren't the ones that made a "bad purchasing decision" just because ONE SINGLE DEVICE (the PS3) doesn't work with it.

So, you mean the Wii supports 1080i? It is unreasonable for someone to buy into tech
that started 7+ years ago and STILL wants support. As the person that said I will accept this technology with ALL it's flaws, you should buy an upscaler. MANY mid-level A/V receivers upscale 480i/p signals up to 1080p. That is ONE solution for you. There are also standalone upscalers. They were made to serve the several groups of people (HD-Ready CRT TV people included).

Second vital point that you must all realize: EVERY HI-DEF DEVICE SUPPORTS 1080i. EVERY ONE. That is, every HD device up until the PS3's FAULTY hardware came out. The blame isn't on certain people's TVs for not supporting every HD standard. The blame lies squarely on the PS3's lack of a scaler and consequential lack of support for the 1080i and 1080p HDTV standards. The PS3 is the odd one out here, NOT our 1080i TVs.

The PS3 supports 1080i. It will even interlace 1080p into 1080i for you. It just doesn't support upscaling from a lower resolution to 1080i. If developers want to create games in 1080i on the PS3, they CAN. Develops don't really care to create games in 1080i, obviously, or there would be 1080i games, right?

Just because you just bought the TV doesn't mean I should still get support. You can still buy a copy of Windows 98 in places, but does MS still support it? NO. You can buy a old Model T Ford from somewhere. Are they still manufacturing part for it? NO. In the tech world, 7 years might as well be 40.

You talk about ALL these other devices that does upscaling to 1080i, but that is not in the context of what we are taling about. Set-top boxes is all about focusing on supporting the past and present ONLY. Traditionally, game consoles are suppose to focus on the present and the future. They offer legacy support, but it's NOT their focus. In the end, ONE HD game console has MORE 1080i support than the other ONE. That's all. It's not a flaw. It's not faulty. It was an engineering decision that keeps a small amount of people from MAXIMIZING there TV's capability. When you buy a modern TV, you will be able to maximize it's display capabilities.

1080p isn't the issue. Most games aren't rendered at 1080p. XB360 didn't support 1080p output for a while too but was never a problem platform. The problem is TV sets that don't support 720p, sets which only support 1080i. For some bizarre reason the designers of the PS3 didn't think to add scaling and suitable 1080i output but left it to TVs to do, which was a ridiculous short-sight for such a famous CE brand!

Doesn't short-sightedness imply the lack of being able to look into the distance ahead? I think Sony looked further AHEAD than any other game console producer. If anything, it was their foresight that cause them NOT to give FULL 1080i support. That was money that probably went into future-proofing the PS3.

Considering how many PS3 games don't support 1080i, that is a lot of work to just up and demand out of someone else. If you are so interested in seeing a list, you are probably going to have to make it yourself.

NO games are created in 1080i (for Xbox 360 or PS3). It's just that one system allows for upscaling to 1080i and the other one allows interlacing 1080p signals into 1080i.

But, if a list is to be created, just list the ones that CAN be played at 1080i. The PS3 hasn't been out that long. Either way the list can be that long.

 

[Statix]

Well neither did HD-DVD buyers - that's what you get for jumping in so early.

And the percentage of HDTV's that don't support 720p I expect is in the region of 2%. Still thousands of people...but well...what HD-DVD owners do with their players?

*Sigh*. How is buying a 1080i HDTV in 2004, a fully 7 YEARS after HDTV was invented (1997) tantamount to the early adopters of the dead HD-DVD standard? Yeah, we're all ignorant early adopters that bought CRTs after the HDTV format had 7 years to mature. Give me a break with this uninformed BS already, guys.

We've never had real figures on that though, so it's hard to gauge impact. how many sets are there out that that don't support 720p? Every TV sets for years has support the 720p standard

But how many people replace their $2000+ HDTVs every couple years? Especially when their current 1080i HDTVs work PERFECTLY?

Give us a list of the games that don't support 1080i and so move to 480p by default.

Here's a list: http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=ps3&thread.id=1543693

Notice that there's a pretty big thread going on over there with literally hundreds of posts by people who are forced to play most PS3 games in 480p.

 

[Entropy]

It's just so irritating to see all these persistently naive and flat-out incorrect remarks by all these HDTV newcomers who really don't know a whole hell of a lot about HDTVs, or their history, prior to them buying their single lone LCD-TV to accompany their next-gen console purchase about a year or so ago. You know who you are.

While I have some sympathy for your position, you really go over the top. The issue is clear, it's unfortunate and a bit surprising, but really - incompatibilities in HD-land are legion. And we are talking about just not working, rather than rendering in lower than desired resolution. You can still play your games. The number of devices that can't handle 720p isn't huge.

And it was bleeding obvious from the very early days that 1080p was where we were going to end up. All the intermediary formats were just that - intermediary formats. 1080p is where it will all converge, media, output devices, recording devices et cetera. Even now all the pieces aren't quite in place, but its getting there because the desire for milking the consumer for upgrades now competes with the desire for getting the whole infrastructure in place and starting the effort of shifting the entire market to the new platform.

I have friends who were aching to buy, but have waited for oh so very long simply because they refused to buy equipment they knew would be obsolete. If you didn't wait, you have been able to enjoy the benefits of higher definition material for some time. Good for you, and if you don't think Sony supports your legacy equipment well enough then just don't buy their console. It won't kill you, just as, to be honest, the PS3 isn't going to suffer much for not making 1080i support mandatory.

 

[Statix]

So, you mean the Wii supports 1080i? It is unreasonable for someone to buy into tech
that started 7+ years ago and STILL wants support.

Wii doesn't support 720p either. You know why? BECAUSE IT'S NOT AN HD DEVICE. It doesn't qualify as an HD device; neither does the Xbox 1. Because the vast majority of their games are SD (480p) only. I count HD devices as DirectV receivers, OTA, the XBOX 360, cable set top boxes... And they all support 1080i. ALL except the PS3.

As the person that said I will accept this technology with ALL it's flaws, you should buy an upscaler. MANY mid-level A/V receivers upscale 480i/p signals up to 1080p. That is ONE solution for you. There are also standalone upscalers. They were made to serve the several groups of people (HD-Ready CRT TV people included).

Standalone upscalers/receivers cost somewhere in the range of $500-2000+ dollars.

The PS3 supports 1080i. It will even interlace 1080p into 1080i for you. It just doesn't support upscaling from a lower resolution to 1080i. If developers want to create games in 1080i on the PS3, they CAN. Develops don't really care to create games in 1080i, obviously, or there would be 1080i games, right?

Just because you just bought the TV doesn't mean I should still get support. You can still buy a copy of Windows 98 in places, but does MS still support it? NO. You can buy a old Model T Ford from somewhere. Are they still manufacturing part for it? NO. In the tech world, 7 years might as well be 40.

720p is just as old a standard as 1080i. Period. There's nothing more that needs to be said.

You talk about ALL these other devices that does upscaling to 1080i, but that is not in the context of what we are taling about. Set-top boxes is all about focusing on supporting the past and present ONLY. Traditionally, game consoles are suppose to focus on the present and the future. They offer legacy support, but it's NOT their focus. In the end, ONE HD game console has MORE 1080i support than the other ONE. That's all. It's not a flaw. It's not faulty. It was an engineering decision that keeps a small amount of people from MAXIMIZING there TV's capability. When you buy a modern TV, you will be able to maximize it's display capabilities.

I didn't realize that buying a HDTV from 2003 or 2004 meant that you're living in the past. As for "focusing on the future only," how many console up until this point in time DIDN'T support 480i? Not a one. Yet according to you, consoles are all about supporting the future and neglecting/alienating the past, right? Including your glorious "console-of-the-future," the PS3. Why don't any consoles have the balls to throw out 480i support then? Why even bother to include output for such an old, obsolete resolution such as 480i and 480p? Doesn't make much sense, right? Also, if the PS3 is so forward thinking, why don't all its games support 1080p upscaled output (like the XBOX 360)? If 1080p were to be supported than 1080i would also be supported also, so it's a win-win. But yet your forward-looking console of the future doesn't support what's clearly the resolution output of the future, 1080p. Why not?

Btw, XBOX 360 doesn't offer "more support for 1080i," it offers TOTAL support for 1080i/p. ALL games support both 1080p AND 1080i. Are you saying that the 360 isn't a console of the future, when it supports 1080p MUCH more than the PS3? It clearly is a console of the future. Yet it supports 1080i. In ALL games. What's the deal with that? Microsoft sure felt it was a good idea to include a built-in scaler. But according to you, it's too backwards to even support 1080i, an outdated, archaic standard that died a whopping 4 years ago. What's up with that man?

Doesn't short-sightedness imply the lack of being able to look into the distance ahead? I think Sony looked further AHEAD than any other game console producer. If anything, it was their foresight that cause them NOT to give FULL 1080i support. That was money that probably went into future-proofing the PS3.

Your illogic is stunning. Since when does NOT having full 1080p support equate to a "future-proofing" strategy? Since when did exclusively supporting 720p, which is just as old and outdated as 1080i, become a "future-proofing" move? Please clarify.

 

[Arwin]

Few small points:

1. The PS3 does support 1080i. You can select it for the dashboard, and it's a separate option from 1080p. It works. I've tried. It's just that not all games support it. Fine in Europe, but in the US there are a fair number of 1080i only TVs. I sometimes wonder how much better that really looks versus 480p, but I imagine it sometimes probably will look better. Again, a scaler would be nice, and otherwise I don't see that it should have been very difficult for developers to support it. Sony could have made a difference and required it, but considering how much trouble developers have had with the system, well. They're not like Naughty Dog anyway apparently, who claim that it took about a day to implement 1080i support and they added it very last minute.

2. There is a 1080i support list out there I think, I recall having seen one at least. EDIT: and its in this thread already I see.

3. A scaler in the 360 was a smart move by Microsoft and would have been a good idea for the PS3 as well. It's an issue that will never die out completely, but it's not one that affects a large number of users, and it should affect less as time progresses (and I personally am very happy with deep color support in the PS3).

 

[deepbrown]

*Sigh*. How is buying a 1080i HDTV in 2004, a fully 7 YEARS after HDTV was invented (1997) tantamount to the early adopters of the dead HD-DVD standard? Yeah, we're all ignorant early adopters that bought CRTs after the HDTV format had 7 years to mature. Give me a break with this uninformed BS already, guys.



But how many people replace their $2000+ HDTVs every couple years? Especially when their current 1080i HDTVs work PERFECTLY?


Here's a list: http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=ps3&thread.id=1543693

Notice that there's a pretty big thread going on over there with literally hundreds of posts by people who are forced to play most PS3 games in 480p.

Don't come here and start a thread and then start insulting all the regulars. It's a tad over the top.

The PS3 supports 1080i, but not all games do. Blame Sony for not telling them to, or blame the developers for not thinking about it. Uncharted was one game that had 1080i added last minute just because people like you made a storm. So well done you.

"when it supports 1080p MUCH more than the PS3" No it doesn't. They both support 1080p as much as each other. You could say the PS3 supports 1080p "much more" because it "supports" Blu-rays (at 720p/1080i/1080p).

 

[deepbrown]

Few small points:

1. The PS3 does support 1080i. You can select it for the dashboard, and it's a separate option from 1080p. It works. I've tried. It's just that not all games support it. Fine in Europe, but in the US there are a fair number of 1080i only TVs. I sometimes wonder how much better that really looks versus 480p, but I imagine it sometimes probably will look better. Again, a scaler would be nice, and otherwise I don't see that it should have been very difficult for developers to support it. Sony could have made a difference and required it, but considering how much trouble developers have had with the system, well. They're not like Naughty Dog anyway apparently, who claim that it took about a day to implement 1080i support and they added it very last minute.

2. There is a 1080i support list out there I think, I recall having seen one at least. EDIT: and its in this thread already I see.

3. A scaler in the 360 was a smart move by Microsoft and would have been a good idea for the PS3 as well. It's an issue that will never die out completely, but it's not one that affects a large number of users, and it should affect less as time progresses (and I personally am very happy with deep color support in the PS3).

The 360 has a scaler chip? I've been told that was a false rumour.

 

[AlNom]

The 360 has a scaler chip? I've been told that was a false rumour.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1022643&postcount=77

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Wii doesn't support 720p either. You know why? BECAUSE IT'S NOT AN HD DEVICE. It doesn't qualify as an HD device; neither does the Xbox 1. Because the vast majority of their games are SD (480p) only. I count HD devices as DirectV receivers, OTA, the XBOX 360, cable set top boxes... And they all support 1080i. ALL except the PS3.

I think we know the Wii is not an HD device. The part I quoted from you said ALL devices. In another paragraph of yours, you go into more detail by indentifying "HD" devices. I addressed that as well (along with most of this post of yours). I even explained why set-top boxes supports what it supports. I guess you chose to ignore it, though. Plus, on the video side, the PS3 will play 1080i Blu-ray movies to your TV. Isn't that what a set-top box provides you with? I don't believe it offers gaming solutions, does it?

BTW, Xbox 1 had, AT LEAST, one 720p game. The PS2 has several "HD" titles.

Standalone upscalers/receivers cost somewhere in the range of $500-2000+ dollars.

Yes. That's correct. Remember, the cheap option 2 years ago will probably cost you more in the future.

It's just like providing 2 options. One option has a higher upfront cost, but saves you in the long term. The other option has a lower upfront cost, but will cost you through the nose for the upgraded option the first one has included in it's price. Some people will go for the latter choice, then get mad at the additional cost of upgrading. The point is...the options were in front of you and you chose one. Now, you have to live with it, or just continue to make noise about it (with, probably, no positive results).

720p is just as old a standard as 1080i. Period. There's nothing more that needs to be said.

You are looking at this incorrectly. It isn't about video standards. It's about your rear-projection CRT TV. The ATSC standard is 480p/720p/1080i/1080p. Your TV does not include 720p or 1080p as acceptable input signals...period. That's as logical as it gets. Please stop trying to place the blame everywhere other than where it really belongs.

I didn't realize that buying a HDTV from 2003 or 2004 meant that you're living in the past.

No. Buying a rear-projection CRT TV from 2003 or 2004 meant you just picked a TV with psuedo ATSC standards support (1 out of the 3 HD resolutions). My friend bought a rear-projection HD-Ready CRT TV in 2000. You, basically, made the same choice he did but 3 or 4 years after him (the SAME setup).

As for "focusing on the future only," how many console up until this point in time DIDN'T support 480i? Not a one. Yet according to you, consoles are all about supporting the future and neglecting/alienating the past, right? Including your glorious "console-of-the-future," the PS3. Why don't any consoles have the balls to throw out 480i support then? Why even bother to include output for such an old, obsolete resolution such as 480i and 480p? Doesn't make much sense, right? Also, if the PS3 is so forward thinking, why don't all its games support 1080p upscaled output (like the XBOX 360)? If 1080p were to be supported than 1080i would also be supported also, so it's a win-win. But yet your forward-looking console of the future doesn't support what's clearly the resolution output of the future, 1080p. Why not?[/qoute]
480 support isn't thrown out because there are tens of millions of people that still have 480 TVs. The same can't be said for the rear projection HD-Ready CRT TV crowd, obviously.

Btw, XBOX 360 doesn't offer "more support for 1080i," it offers TOTAL support for 1080i/p. ALL games support both 1080p AND 1080i. Are you saying that the 360 isn't a console of the future, when it supports 1080p MUCH more than the PS3? It clearly is a console of the future. Yet it supports 1080i. In ALL games. What's the deal with that? Microsoft sure felt it was a good idea to include a built-in scaler. But according to you, it's too backwards to even support 1080i, an outdated, archaic standard that died a whopping 4 years ago. What's up with that man?

It's just one "more" piece to the 1080i bit that the Xbox 360 supports that makes it total 1080i support. I know you're all gung-ho about that one piece of the puzzle due to your special circumstances. That's fine. Just remember, the problem is that your TV doesn't follow the complete ATSC standard. That's where the problem lies. MS just gives you an escape clause to your TV's problem.

Your illogic is stunning. Since when does NOT having full 1080p support equate to a "future-proofing" strategy? Since when did exclusively supporting 720p, which is just as old and outdated as 1080i, become a "future-proofing" move? Please clarify.

I thought you were trying to call the definition for being short-sighted was illogical, since you quoted that.

Anyway, I guess it is logical to blame the PS3 for your TV not being able to accept the ATSC standards, right? I guess it's illogical to blame the person that said..."I'll take that TV", right?

I picked a TV that accepts the ATSC standards, so I think I will continue to keep my "illogic" over your logic, then. Is that ok with you?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

*Sigh*. How is buying a 1080i HDTV in 2004

What model of TV is that? I can't see how any manufacturer would make a TV in 2004 that doesn't support 720p input. That's just as dumb as a PS3 not supporting 1080i output! HDTV has two common resolutions - 1080i and 720p. If someone's connecting HDTV content to their HDTV they need to be able to take these two signals. Optical discs have added 1080p but earlier TVs may well not manage that. However, you want to be able to watch 720p HD channels on your HDTV set, no? So a TV that doesn't accept 720p is a bizarre choice. If all content (cable) goes through a box that converts to 1080i, it won't be a problem, but you're then placing reliance on the connecting devices. In an international market, that's quite a risk, and that's why the EU mandated the HD Ready initiative to ensure all sets sold as being HD were able to handle the formats that HD content would come in.

But how many people replace their $2000+ HDTVs every couple years? Especially when their current 1080i HDTVs work PERFECTLY?

What I mean is how many of those 1080i only sets were sold, and how many belong to PS3 owners or would-be PS3 owners? If there's millions of them, it's a very relevant market. If it's tens of thousands, I can see how it'd get (wrongly and unfairly) ignored.

 

[Statix]

It's just like providing 2 options. One option has a higher upfront cost, but saves you in the long term. The other option has a lower upfront cost, but will cost you through the nose for the upgraded option the first one has included in it's price. Some people will go for the latter choice, then get mad at the additional cost of upgrading. The point is...the options were in front of you and you chose one. Now, you have to live with it, or just continue to make noise about it (with, probably, no positive results).

It's not just me making "noise." Just visit the link to the thread I provided. And if all this "noise" doesn't yield positive results, then it'll yield negative ones, at least for Sony, in the form of lesser sales for them, greater sales for the competition (360) by informing all those with 1080i-only HDTVs that the 360 is the better, more compatible solution for them.

You are looking at this incorrectly. It isn't about video standards. It's about your rear-projection CRT TV. The ATSC standard is 480p/720p/1080i/1080p. Your TV does not include 720p or 1080p as acceptable input signals...period. That's as logical as it gets. Please stop trying to place the blame everywhere other than where it really belongs.

No. Buying a rear-projection CRT TV from 2003 or 2004 meant you just picked a TV with psuedo ATSC standards support (1 out of the 3 HD resolutions). My friend bought a rear-projection HD-Ready CRT TV in 2000. You, basically, made the same choice he did but 3 or 4 years after him (the SAME setup).

And your point is? Sony still made a bad decision, unlike Microsoft, to not include as simple a feature as output scaling, something that's present in just about every HDTV device you can imagine. Sure, technically they don't HAVE to support it, but it's such an easy thing to implement, and something that everyone expects, and would have avoided the alienation and cutting off of many TVs that are still present in a LOT of peoples' homes. You and I don't have the exact figures as to how many people still have 1080i HDTVs, but I'm going to assume that it's still a significant number. Not everyone replaces their big screens just because a bunch of new LCD TVs are flooding the market, because they don't have to.

A scaler would also have been a great asset for other HDTV owners as well, avoiding other inconveniences and complications such as odd native LCD and computer monitor resolutions (e.g., 1280x1024, 1340x768), enabling VGA output, and supporting 1080p upscaled output for a sharper, better quality image. As it stands now, the PS3 is extremely poor compared to the 360 in terms of offering a variety of different output solutions for different display situations--ALL due to the lack of hardware scaling. To be clear, the lack of a built-in scaler does NOT JUST AFFECT 1080i HDTVs, it affects EVERYONE.

I absolutely guarantee you that the next Playstation system will include a hardware scaler. Not a doubt in my mind. Care to dispute that?

It's just one "more" piece to the 1080i bit that the Xbox 360 supports that makes it total 1080i support. I know you're all gung-ho about that one piece of the puzzle due to your special circumstances. That's fine. Just remember, the problem is that your TV doesn't follow the complete ATSC standard. That's where the problem lies. MS just gives you an escape clause to your TV's problem.

Yes, the Xbox 360 does. As does EVERY HDTV device out there. Every HDTV device aside from the PS3. Which piece of hardware is the odd one out here?

Anyway, I guess it is logical to blame the PS3 for your TV not being able to accept the ATSC standards, right? I guess it's illogical to blame the person that said..."I'll take that TV", right?

I picked a TV that accepts the ATSC standards, so I think I will continue to keep my "illogic" over your logic, then. Is that ok with you?

ATSC standards weren't fully formulated back when I bought my HDTV (it wasn't in 2003). And even if people did buy HDTVs early on, as early adopters, most people assumed reasonably that HDTV devices of the future would at least support scaling the two oldest HDTV standards known to man (1080i and 720p). It's not a difficult thing to implement, and not an unreasonable feature to expect. No one expects throw out their 60+ inch HDTV in a couple years. How would you feel if you had to toss out all your 720p LCD TVs because they didn't support 1080p inputs (and there are a LOT of those out there) because a device-designer decided it was the right time to go 1080p-exclusive, and foregoes a scaler in the process?

Sony, Toshiba, Mitsubishi, Phillips, and many other brand-names, were all companies that sold 1080i-only HDTVs, while some as late as last year still had certain 1080i-only HDTVs available for sale. Don't act like this was an isolated type or model of TV that affected a very small portion of HDTVs sold, because 1080i-only TVs were extremely prevalent a couple years ago. They may not be prevalent to generations of HDTV models pertaining to GAMERS, who are relative newcomers to the HDTV market, but 1080i-only CRTs made up the lionshare of the HDTV installed base and sales just a few years ago.

 

[makattack]

BTW, Xbox 1 had, AT LEAST, one 720p game. The PS2 has several "HD" titles.

Actually, according to this db:
http://www.hdtvpub.com/productdb/ga...solution&daStartRow=1&showRows=25&searched=do

XBox 1 had 6 1080i natively rendered games, and 18 720p games.

I have a bunch of the 1080i and 720p games myself...

 

[deepbrown]

http://www.criteriongames.com/article.php?artID=66

Burnout Paradise now supports 1080i.

Devs can support it if they want.

 

[whome0]

http://ps3.qj.net/Criterion-1080i-support-for-Burnout-Paradise-PS3-real/pg/49/aid/117188
According to Criterion, they're using some of the memory freed up by Sony's latest SDK to scale the 720p game up to 960x1080. The PS3's hardware scaler is then used to upscale the image horizontally and output at 1920x1080.

Is this SDK some very brand new release or been available for long time now?