ATI cheating on anisotropic filtering performance

[John Reynolds]

- it only drops to bilinear if multitexturing is used.

Poor wording there, Dave. I think multitexturing is a pretty common occurrence these days.

 

[Ostsol]

- it only drops to bilinear if multitexturing is used.

Poor wording there, Dave. I think multitexturing is a pretty common occurrence these days.

Unless Dave is refering strictly to fixed function multi-texturing. . . *shrugs*

 

[radar1200gs]

For on - take a look at the reviews that use control panel or application AF. Note that out reviews use application where we can, and this is dictated in the Test Setup page.

Also note, that ATI's control panel AF always uses Trilinear on the first texture layer, so thats always on - it only drops to bilinear if multitexturing is used.

Not trying to defend this thread, since it is a bit silly - ATi hasn't changed their Aniso (unfortunately), but most of the games out there use multitexturing (and have done so since it was introduced with Voodoo2) which is why ATi's filtering is so annoying to those who care.

 

[WaltC]

Not trying to defend this thread, since it is a bit silly - ATi hasn't changed their Aniso (unfortunately), but most of the games out there use multitexturing (and have done so since it was introduced with Voodoo2) which is why ATi's filtering is so annoying to those who care.

Generally, I don't approve of name-calling or the label "f@nboy," but in the case of this thread and some of these responses I really think B3d needs to set up a new forum called "Romper Room for nVidiots" where the children can play and force feed each other their various delusions and freely engage in the exchange of bodily propaganda...

A few months ago B3d ran a comprehensive article on this subject, and it's been beaten to death in 10,000 forums from Maine to Moscow ever since...and yet we still have B3d forum participants who read the B3d articles, participated in the forum threads pertinent to the subject, and still don't understand a word that was said out of the gazillions written on that subject. Whew...

The Catalyst CP settings are generic in nature, forcing certain settings for a wide range of software for which settings compatability is a concern, and is intended for older 3d games which do not offer their own internal settings options.

Setting the CP to "Application Preferences" for Ansio and FSAA (the modern, preferred method for setting up current 3d games), allows the end user to make his settings inside the application instead of the CP, which in turn instructs the drivers to apply filtering to as many texture layers as the application dictates, without respect to the generic limits programmed into the CP override (which is turned off when set to Application Preference.)

Thus, there is no problem, and "those who care" should certainly have had their ignorance corrected by this stage of the game. If not, it must be because "those who care" really don't, is all I can say...

 

[dksuiko]

Generally, I don't approve of name-calling or the label "f@nboy," but in the case of this thread and some of these responses I really think B3d needs to set up a new forum called "Romper Room for nVidiots" where the children can play and force feed each other their various delusions and freely engage in the exchange of bodily propaganda...

Because obviously it's only the nVidiots that pollute the forum. 'Extremists' from both camps are annoying, force feed various delusions, and throw propaganda around. This thread, and various others, are great examples of it.

 

[WaltC]

...
Because obviously it's only the nVidiots that pollute the forum. 'Extremists' from both camps are annoying, force feed various delusions, and throw propaganda around. This thread, and various others, are great examples of it.

My comments were restricted to this thread, however... Really, an implication that one extremist thread justifies another isn't a very productive or insightful one, is it? This particular one is egregious to me because so much constructive, informative, helpful information on the subject this thread addresses has been covered in the B3d forums, and formally by B3d, for months, and this thread ignores it all.

Also, I have no quarrel whatever with bias provided it is rational and justified and demonstrable. IE, nothing wrong in preferring one product over another if you have good reason, imo. What bothers me about this thread is that there is no reason or knowledge behind it, and as such it is willful misinformation. That's the kind of "extremism" I particularly dislike.

But I'm getting way too melodramatic about all of this silliness. Yawn... (Not your fault--it's the subject.)

 

[Scarlet]

Oh please Chalnoth.

Why not just label yourself as an nVidia employee and spare us the flaming thread title.

 

[Scarlet]

Actually one really wonders why this thread is even open at this point, and why it wasn't locked around post#3.

 

[Ostsol]

Is there really any purpose to this thread anymore? Chalnoth hasn't even replied to the masses of responses. . .

 

[Althornin]

Maybe I'm cynical, but I reckon most (big) business would lie and cheat to get a bigger market share. Whether it's any better or worse to do it in private or public is debatable.

And you basically say "who cares".
I say you attitude sucks.
You ask - why praise them for doing what they SHOULD do?
I say - if you do not, thent here is no incentive for them to do so...
vote with your wallet, stop letting companies do things you object to - take a stand, instead of doing what (imo) amounts to becoming an apologist for shitty corporate ethics.

 

[Richard]

Considering what Dave posted perhaps Chalnoth meant "nVidia" instead of "ATi"?

I don't know. Despite knowing of his bias I agree with whoever said this is not his style. He's fully aware of ATi's AF implementation having criticised it many times.

I was expecting him to downplay 3Dc and Temporal AA and extol the virtues of SM 3.0 and fp32 precision now that both cards went public, but I certainly did not expect he would start such a thread. :?

 

[StealthHawk]

Well, obviously this has been an ATI standard since the R300 was released.

I don't think so, the system has been in place since Cat3.3 or Cat3.4, which correspond to the release of R350 IIRC.

I remember times where people here were furious for bilinear being forced upon people. However, no trilinear filtering beyond stage 1 is being put aside like it's nothing. Sorry to say, but it smells around here.

Bilinear on all but the first texture stage is NOT being forced on you, that's why nobody is up in arms about it ATI doesn't hide what they're doing or tell you you're getting something you're not. For all practical purposes you can get trilinear AF on all texture stages if you wish by using rTool or modifying a registry key.

Would it be better if there was a discrete option in the control panel? Sure. Would such a feature coupled with application specific profiles make life easier? Again, yes.

 

[Evildeus]

That thread is not closed?

 

[Kombatant]

That thread is not closed?

Hey, let us have our fun first!

 

[Evildeus]

You had one night

 

[Pete]

Well, Chal's posted since this thread, so he's obviously around to participate. The fact that he doesn't leads me to believe I'm not in on his joke, and that makes me sad.

 

[Ylandro]

Also note, that ATI's control panel AF always uses Trilinear on the first texture layer, so thats always on - it only drops to bilinear if multitexturing is used.

What does this actually mean in playing games?

Multitexturing would mean, first a texture with the colors/appearance of the panel, and the second a lightmap, adding shadows?
In that case, I can understand why it doesn't hurt so much to only do trilinear on the first texture.

 

[radar1200gs]

Generally, I don't approve of name-calling or the label "f@nboy," but in the case of this thread and some of these responses I really think B3d needs to set up a new forum called "Romper Room for nVidiots" where the children can play and force feed each other their various delusions and freely engage in the exchange of bodily propaganda...

Because obviously it's only the nVidiots that pollute the forum. 'Extremists' from both camps are annoying, force feed various delusions, and throw propaganda around. This thread, and various others, are great examples of it.

So, are you accusing Dave of spreading misinformation, or suggesting Voodoo2 doesn't support multi-texturing?

 

[Tim]

Multitexturing would mean, first a texture with the colors/appearance of the panel, and the second a lightmap, adding shadows?
In that case, I can understand why it doesn't hurt so much to only do trilinear on the first texture.

That is the general idea the impact of not doing tri-filtering on shadows etc. should be very small. Unfortunately a few games do put color-textures on other layers than the first.

This is optimization is off cause a complete non-issue on games that offer in-game settings for AF.

 

[Richthofen]

bottom line is this:

in directx they optimize on filter stages.
It is not easy to turn those optimizations off unfortunatly 3dcenter.de
were able to do that and guess what ... there was a performance hit on the R420.
Most reviewers overlocked that fact. They just benchmarked and did not analyse this matter.

Give me just 2 minutes and i will find thousands of threads and postings on various forums including this one here where people accused Nvidia of cheating while doing something like that.
Where are all those people right now?
AT 3dcenters request ATI responded that they will continue to use that optimization.
Nice one... really nice one and espacially really nice how different the vast majority is viewing at both companies in this matter. The one is cheating the other one just optimizing.

My standpoint is clear. If Nvidia was cheating while using lower precision or using a stage optimization of FX cards ATI this time is simply flat out cheating too.
That is the bottom line and there is no way to deny that.