AMD: R8xx Speculation

[mczak]

I agree! People had more money back then!

Unless you mean something else, so you are more than welcome to explain.

Eh, I think probably the most important difference was that the HD4870 wasn't the fastest card out there. That was the GTX 280. It had to compete with GTX 260, and AMD priced it aggressively to gain market share (and of course promptly nvidia lowered prices and introduced faster GTX 260).
That's not the case now, noone really expects any competitive products from nvidia for some months, with even the 5850 beating a GTX 285 (at a currently very similar price point I might add - of course noone has ever argued GTX 285 is good value compared against even the GTX 275). If you compare to dual gpu cards those rv870 cards also seem priced quite competitively.

 

[neliz]

Ruby RealDoll(tm) / Real Life Ruby

(check the specular highlights on her breasts!)

Conspiracy Theory:

Checking the official video Clip of "Ruby" by "The Kaiser Chiefs" one cannot fail to notice "AMD" appearing in the URL of this youtube clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d14511Amd08

 

[Kaotik]

A 3-display board will likely have 2 DVI + 1 DP, so you need 1 DP->DVI.

Nope, the 3-display board has 2x DVI, HDMI and DP by standard, even though you only get to use 3 of them at once

 

[Wirmish]

Pricing. .people.. your $399 5870 versus the $500 GTX295. can you please tell me how the $399 is "extorting" customers?

Chiphell: 1900x1200, 4xAA, 16xAF, DX10, Very High.

 

[mczak]

Not in retil but if youhave some friend that has a cousin in chinese factory i'll bethe could provide you few of those. Well at least tha's the "reason" why SEX card cost a lot more, it has SIX PACK CONVERTER in it's bundle SIX Minis->SIX DVI HydraHeads

apple sells you mini display port -> dvi adapters. Though probably one of them costs more than 6 of them from the chinese factory directly...
Actually I'm wondering, do these adapters work with dual-link DVI? At least for apple, only single-link is possible with cheap passive adapter. Dual link requires active adapter.
edit: I think dual link with passive adapter is impossible, hence it's probably time to shop for DP monitors if you're looking for more than 2 2560x1600 displays. Though maybe passive adapters to HDMI 1.3 would work (but not HDMI 1.0 type B which really is dual link too plus it only exists in theory), which should support 2560x1600, but I'm not aware of any monitor accepting HDMI with the higher bitrate, don't know if the rv870 can output that neither).

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Chiphell: 1900x1200, 4xAA, 16xAF, DX10, Very High.

That's still with an overclocked 5870 on a different system than the others and it's unknown if it's even the same benchmark level.

 

[gamervivek]

Checking the official video Clip of "Ruby" by "The Kaiser Chiefs" one cannot fail to notice "AMD" appearing in the URL of this youtube clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d14511Amd08

oh wow

 

[psolord]

Eh, I think probably the most important difference was that the HD4870 wasn't the fastest card out there. That was the GTX 280. It had to compete with GTX 260, and AMD priced it aggressively to gain market share (and of course promptly nvidia lowered prices and introduced faster GTX 260).
That's not the case now, noone really expects any competitive products from nvidia for some months, with even the 5850 beating a GTX 285 (at a currently very similar price point I might add - of course noone has ever argued GTX 285 is good value compared against even the GTX 275). If you compare to dual gpu cards those rv870 cards also seem priced quite competitively.

When the 4870X2 came out, it was the fastest card out there and still was cheaper than the GTX 280, the day i got it. Nvidia didn't have any newer product coming for some months, it was still 65nm vs 55nm, it was still DX10 only while ATI offered DX10.1. Yes DX11 is bigger of course but there are no games yet, nor there will be a significant quantity for quite some time. Not to mention the quality!

Yes, the issue here isn't the 5870X2. I am just bringing it up just to show that it didn't matter then. Why does it matter now all of a sudden?

Nvidia already has competitive products out there now. You can get two GTX 260c216 for 260 euros and still beat the crap out of the GTX 285 and quite possibly be even with the 5850 too!

There was no such option when the 4850 came out! Something has changed for the worse!

 

[Fusion]

I think that the HD5870 X2 couldn't be longer because it'll be impractical!

I see that AMD will design the X2 in one of two ways:

- Making the X2 a dual core chip. (not dual GPU)

- Sandwiching two HD5870 as nVidia's dual GPU cards.

 

[trinibwoy]

Something has changed for the worse!

Nothing has changed. Products are still being priced based on the market and competition. As said before you can't use some arbitrary number that you consider "fair" and call everyone who disagrees a corporate slave. What if I randomly decide that $199 is "fair", does that mean you are a slave for paying $299?

AMD has a performance, features, and timing advantage over Nvidia. Why in the world would they artificially lower the price of their product below what people are willing to pay for it?

 

[rpg.314]

Something has changed for the worse!

That's exactly what people here are telling you. The competitive landscape has changed. It is not always bad when there is one dominant side and the other side is smaller. It becomes bad only when it becomes de facto permanent like it is in the cpu market.

 

[psolord]

Thanks B3D friends for sharing your thoughts with me. Your opinions are well accepted. All of them.

I will stop my bitchin about the pricing now.

Anyway if the performance is that good, there can be some fair justification i guess.

See ya around!

 

[elsence]

About the 400$ pricing...

If i remember correctly the GTX280 launched at 650$ in middle of June.

Then AMD launched at end of june the 4870 at 300$ and after a couple of days NV forced to revise the GTX280 pricing at 450$ giving also rebate to those that bought GTX280 at 650$.

Then after one month in August ATI launched the 4870X2 at 550$.
So the 4870X2 was 100$ more than GTX280 in august.

Although i am not exactly happy for the pricing of 58XX, it is not so bad.

ATI strategy launching the 4870 at 300$, was not to confuse NV about what the future ATI pricing strategy will be, in the same logic, they must have launched the 2900XT for the same reason, lol...

ATI launched a 260mm2 GPU (RV770) at 300/200$ price points, with such a good performance, hoping they will gain market share in the discrete AIB market.

Sadly what ATI gained in market share in the discrete AIB market, was not what they hoped so the expirement was not so succesful as they hoped...

But their direction was good, they just have to maintain this perception that people started to have in Q2 2008 more than 1,5 year...

So the highest SKU for RV770 was 4870 at 300$ with 512MB 900MHz GDDR5 and 260mm2.

So why not launch a 338mm2 part with 1GB 1,3GHz GDDR5 (highest SKU 5870) at 400$?

The scaling is correct and the performance is there. (I would prefer 2GB ver at 400$, but that is just my wish...)

Also, if you consider that 4870 wasn't at launch the fastest card around (if the specs are true, 5870 at 850MHz 32ROPs/80TUs/1600SPs will be the fastest card in the market)

and that the 4870 was based in a little bit more mature (6months after 55nm RV670, regarding the 55nm TSMCs indicative yields) manufacturing process (the 40nm although same 6 month difference from 40nm RV740, had some parametric problems in higher percentage than what 55nm had)

and that usually (nothing definite/concrete in that, there are many factors..., but statistically based, with same rules...) for a 260mm2 part the possibilities is to have a little better yields than a 338mm2 part,

and also at launch the DX10 4870 had to compete with DX10 parts (GT200 based parts) while now the DX11 5870/5850 parts have to compete with DX10 GTX285/GTX295 (GT300 even if it launch in Q4 2009, i suppose it will launch after a month of 5870 launch date, that's the good scenario for GT300 launch...)

So you can clearly see that the price is not that bad.

Would i prefer a 300$ price?
Of cource.
Is it logical to demand this price if you think all the above?
No.

Also, AMD (needs money) has many financial problems, that will not be solved until bulldozer (2011 best case scenario) come to the market (although Intel is so far ahead, that i forecast that bulldozer cannot improve their ASP in a high degree (<1,5X), long talk...)

 

[Squilliam]

Im not reading too much into the launch pricing. I suspect they simply don't have the cards to meet demand at the $299 price point. If they priced it lower, they would need more cards at launch and that launch would have to come later to give them time to build up inventory.

 

[trinibwoy]

Select quotes from [H]

On eyefinity crossfire:

At launch Eyefinity will NOT support CrossFire. No CF is currently only a software hurdle. The cards do support it, but the software is not finished yet, but will be soon.

On general performance boost:

I would guess up to 2X, about all I can say.

On physics:

I went to the USS Hornet in Alameda, CA (nice to see you again Kyle) the cards I saw (ATI 5870) should be out around the time windows 7 goes retail. The 5870 will be able to drive 3 30 inch monitors at the same time. I was one of 15 people to be dragged to the bowls of the ship and saw some really nice tech demos. ATI also is going open source with this product. Open CL and direct input. The physics were amazing as well. All Open CL originated. The Physics are going to be run on BOTH the GPU and CPU. Really nice scaling. I think nvidia is in trouble this round.

 

[Die_Hard_AMD]

http://news.ati-forum.de/index.php/...ige-spezifikationen-und-weitere-informationen

 

[Sound_Card]

Select quotes from [H]

On eyefinity crossfire:



On general performance boost:



On physics:

Havok physics?
What middle ware could they be using and what game?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Nope, the 3-display board has 2x DVI, HDMI and DP by standard, even though you only get to use 3 of them at once

Nope.

You get 2x DVI and HDMI or 1 DVI, 1 DP, 1 HDMI, or 2 DVI, 1 DP by default for 58xx.

Only 3 display outputs period for most reference boards. If there's more you can use it regardless up to 6 outputs.

Regards,
SB

 

[Rufus]

apple sells you mini display port -> dvi adapters. Though probably one of them costs more than 6 of them from the chinese factory directly...
Actually I'm wondering, do these adapters work with dual-link DVI? At least for apple, only single-link is possible with cheap passive adapter. Dual link requires active adapter.
edit: I think dual link with passive adapter is impossible, hence it's probably time to shop for DP monitors if you're looking for more than 2 2560x1600 displays. Though maybe passive adapters to HDMI 1.3 would work (but not HDMI 1.0 type B which really is dual link too plus it only exists in theory), which should support 2560x1600, but I'm not aware of any monitor accepting HDMI with the higher bitrate, don't know if the rv870 can output that neither).

HDMI uses an identical electrical link to DVI, and DP uses a very similar one. The difference is that DVI specs a clock frequency limit, so to do 25x16 you need 2 of the electrical links. HDMI (>=1.3, not 1.0) and DP run at higher clock frequencies so can do it with just 1.

So yes, if you want 6 25x16 displays you need HDMI 1.3 or DP. Do they actually make active adapters that take a single HDMI link in and produce 2 DVI links out? How does that play with HDCP?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Nothing has changed. Products are still being priced based on the market and competition. As said before you can't use some arbitrary number that you consider "fair" and call everyone who disagrees a corporate slave. What if I randomly decide that $199 is "fair", does that mean you are a slave for paying $299?

AMD has a performance, features, and timing advantage over Nvidia. Why in the world would they artificially lower the price of their product below what people are willing to pay for it?

Yes and I'm sure we'll all be applauding how great the prices are when the x2 launches at 699-799 USD. Again climbing back into the stratosphere of pricing.

I'm soooooo glad to see ATI abandoning their proclaimed plans to focus on the sweet spot (200-300 USD) first and address the enthusiast market with dual GPU products. /sarcasm.

Meh, whatever, I'm just disappointed.

Regards,
SB