Am. Football games 2008 PS3/X360

joker454 said:
I'm curious. Do you really believe that a dev studio was able to get a PS3 game out the door at 60fps in "just a few months"?

What if I told you that, say, private sources indicate it was worked on for far far longer than that, would you believe me?

I'm just curious ;)
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No I indicated that I thought others were working on the PS3 version.

But it definitely was the case that the PS2 team moved over for the last few months.

That game was delayed a month from its original release date too.
 
joker454 said:
What I'd expect for engine people (for a sports game) would be:

Sports game season #1: "just get the damn thing working so we can finally go home for dinner"

Sports game season #2: "ok, lets put in what was cut from the first game"

Sports game season #3: "finally feature complete, lets get this thing running slick"

...grossly simplified of course. The season#1 pain should have mostly applied to their first title, the 360 build. You'd think by now that both 360/PS3 builds would be at similar states, but who knows maybe they aren't. Still, with such a short dev cycle, the engine guys don't really get to relax after the first and/or second titles have shipped.
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Well I would expect Madden 2007 was your season #1 scenario for the PS3 and season #2 scenario for the 360. I'm not sure how the PS3 engine guys get to skip the "oh shit, get this working" stage just because they had a 360 engine from the previous year. Madden 06->07 on the 360 kind of looks like 07->08 on the PS3.

I want to predict the future :)

Sports game season #4+: "Good enough, let's update the roster and charge another $60"
 
Todd33 said:
Your anti-Sony rant does not explain Madden 2006 and 2007 on the 360. Last years had bad frame rates and even the menu was slow (I own it), did MS have bad tools and hardware a year ago? They finally get the 3rd iteration with full features and frame rate, so why is EA's 2nd iteration the on the PS3 a fair comparison?
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heh

It was about as much an anti-sony rant as this title was anti-sony. I stated an obvious truth and these devs are limited by these factors just like any other developer on any other platform or any professional in any field.

With more time, better tools, more people and or more knowledgeable people, they can get better results. Same can be said for any machine, not just ps3.

Also, regarding EA devtools and timeframe, I seem to recall some sort of boxing game or something from EA that they demonstrated on PS3 in 2005 ... I think it was at e3 ... hmm... a bit over two years ago. I imagine they had to spend some time getting this demo together...



I don't think it's crazy at this point saying ps3 is more difficult to dev for. I also don't think it's crazy to say these machines are on par tech-wise and the biggest difference will be developers, not HW... well... devs, price, and BR.
 
TheChefO said:
heh

I stated an obvious truth
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No, you stated an opinion. The fact that you replied with more opinion does not make your opinion any more valid. You ignored my point completely, why is that?

I'm not going to argue the PS3 is easier as easy to work with, I'll leave that for the devs - my opinion, like yours is not based on any experience.

I stated some useful factual information to put things into context - EA has worked on three Madden 360 titles, it took the 3rd to become a complete package. So either the tools or hardware for the 360 were hard to work with up to this year or your theory is biased, your choice.
 
Todd33 said:
I'm not sure how the PS3 engine guys get to skip the "oh shit, get this working" stage just because they had a 360 engine from the previous year.
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The engine guys do skip some pain though. For multi platform devs, there inevitably is alot of shared code even engine side. Note that "shared" does not automatically mean sub-optimal as I'm sure others will want to believe! Plus, after the first title expectations have now been set. You're not 100% sure what you can get away with on your first next gen title, but finishing the 360 build gives you a feel of what to expect on the PS3 build, both code and asset wise.

In our case we've already put out two 360 games and one PS3 game. But at this stage, both our games are at "stage 3", expectations are set, we know both machines, the growing pains are gone. The vast majority of our time is spent optimizing, custom code for each box, so in our view our third 360 title is on the same level so to speak as our second PS3 title. But maybe this isn't at all indicative of where EA is at, I don't know.
 
Based on some previous statements regarding the shipment of both PS3 and XBox 360 dev kits to large developers like EA, they shipped within months of each other, not years. And weren't beta PS3 kits were closer to final hardware than early 360 ones? The state of the kits, support, tool sets, documentation, example code, libraries, compilers, ship dates, etc. is another matter all together.
 
joker454 said:
The engine guys do skip some pain though. For multi platform devs, there inevitably is alot of shared code even engine side. Note that "shared" does not automatically mean sub-optimal as I'm sure others will want to believe! Plus, after the first title expectations have now been set. You're not 100% sure what you can get away with on your first next gen title, but finishing the 360 build gives you a feel of what to expect on the PS3 build, both code and asset wise.

In our case we've already put out two 360 games and one PS3 game. But at this stage, both our games are at "stage 3", expectations are set, we know both machines, the growing pains are gone. The vast majority of our time is spent optimizing, custom code for each box, so in our view our third 360 title is on the same level so to speak as our second PS3 title. But maybe this isn't at all indicative of where EA is at, I don't know.
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Can you say which games those are? Didn't know the game you were working on was already out.


Regarding tools and EA having more time or whatever, the proof will be next year, although with the uproar, EA should have some motivation to get the PS3 SKU up to par.

But now I'm hearing of AI issues and problems with networking performance on both SKUs and some other smaller bugs. So maybe we need to ratchet down expectations.

Again.
 
jb said:
Tap-in
Hmmm I thought it was on par if not better in places. I got the game last night and only had time for a quick match. The uniforms seem to stand out a lot more. Also there is more detail in the crowd/sidelines now..
...
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sorry but this product is diluted compared to the competition (APF2k8) and '07 albeit 60fps on 360.

Madden 3rd version on 360 ('08) has the players farther from the camera (smaller) the textures (zoom in real close using Y AND the D pad) and see some blurry-ass soft paint looking textures. they are designed to look exactly right (great) at a certain distance during the cut scens and the default replay view. Otherwise they are pretty weak and worse than last year. the lighting engine no longer changes in real time with the clock ('07 did this) it is static.

as for the sidelines... holy mother of... Madden looks horrible! (sorry joker if that's your game)

APF2k8 has 22 players on the field (large and clear with unbelievable textures up close and skin shaders that look real in the daylight) it has some sideline generic guys THEN it also has the chain gang (guys working the first down markers) and 11 regular other players for each team that are taking a break from the game fully modeled and cheering along with the action and interactive (ie, they'll catch you from falling as you run out of bounds etc) AND 3 refs on the field fully rendered. that's ~50 fully rendered characters at least at any given time plus the cheesy looking generics. The crowd is also alive and clear and pretty cool to look at.

Madden has 22 players (small and blurry by comparison) and generic sideline guys that make me want to gouge my eyes out. No refs on the field or chain gang and the crowd is atrocious. Then there is the Vaseline looking DOF (blurfest) on the last 40yds of the field going in.. WTF? the only thing they do right is the colors are PERFECT for each team the models are well proportioned and the lighting is far better than APF. Madden does look good in the cut scenes though and the animation is much better than last year.

I'm glad Madden hit 60fps (plays much smoother) but APF2k8 does 60fps with great textures and more characters (albeit with a lesser light engine)

Edit:
I just checked and in APF 2k8 there are 22 players, ALL 11 of each opposing team's offense or defense on the side (22) , 3 refs, 2 coaches 2 chain gangs (4 total moving) = 53 fully interactive models plus some generic, static fans and players.

Madden has only 22 plus 2 coaches and static fans players.
 
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Todd33 said:
No, you stated an opinion.
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All things being equal: More man hours = better product.

Fact.

We've heard from countless devs (even some ps3 exclusive devs), that xb360 is (has been) easier to get something up and running. Thus, less man hours required vs ps3.

If a dev house is producing the same title for ps3 and xb360 and they put the same time (starting from scratch) into both versions (assuming equal expertise), the xb360 version will likely come out on time, based on ease of development.

We've seen countless multiplat games that have seen this scenario play out in the realworld with better results on 360. Many times, even seeing delays on the ps3 version just to end up with a roughly (some better, some worse) equivilant title.


This is just the most recent example of a multiplat, but on a much more popular game that didn't have the option of delaying.


I'll be getting a ps3 next year when it hits $300, so please don't reply back with some "obviously biased" response. Take a look at all the multiplat games that have come out on ps3 and do a comparison yourself. There's one ps3 title I can think of that came out within a month or two of the xb360 version and it was slightly better on ps3: Dirt. Yes, the same game that was designed from the ground up for ps3, yet shipped sooner on xb360.

And btw, in my first post on the subject, I acknowledged that this was the first version of the title that was worthy of purchase.
 
Tap In said:
as for the sidelines... holy mother of... Madden looks horrible! (sorry joker if that's your game)
Click to expand...

If I'm right Joker don't work for EA…

But The analyse you're made Tap In is very interesting, some games seem to not be oriented for ingame play time but ingame showtime…
 
Tap In said:
the lighting engine no longer changes in real time with the clock ('07 did this) it is static.
Click to expand...

What?

Afternoon games don't get dark as they wind down?

And they did in 2007?

That's horrible.

I hate it when EA takes out features that actually matter.

How about the field? Is it deformable?

How about weather? Does snow accumulate on the field? Does it get muddy in the rain?

Does the weather start/stop or if it's raining/snowing its always raining/snowing?

Do uniforms get 'dirty' as the game goes on?

These are all very basic 'next gen' things IMO. I'd be seriously depressed if these weren't including in the third iteration of a next gen title.
 
Hell No, I'm completely serious.

Realism in a football sim, actually matters.

And realism that effects the game, such as weather and field conditions, should certainly be included by now. Especially considering that EA has played with such ideas in the past but always introduces them and then removes them, rather than working to improve them.
 
I remember MS talked about degrading fields for the Xbox and how the HDD would let them keep track of where players had gouged the field.

I don't think EA ever implemented it.

Not sure if NFL2K or NFL Fever ever did anything like that.
 
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