Alternative AA methods and their comparison with traditional MSAA*

Discussion in 'Rendering Technology and APIs' started by mitran, Nov 15, 2009.

  1. Vadi

    Regular

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2004
    Messages:
    446
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Austria
    Depending on how much developers will spend on ever higher definition graphics you may get away with supersampling on newer cards. Wouldn't that be simpler? It looks better to me even at low resolutions, but maybe I'm biased by seeing CGI cutscenes in old games.

    Yes, I would approve 16xSSAA too. :)
     
  2. jlippo

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,329
    Likes Received:
    425
    Location:
    Finland
    I'm quite sure that only selective supersampling can be fast enough for new games and even then the shader alternatives would be better in terms of speed/quality.
    If the game is old enough you can force up to 32xSSAA on nvidia cards and get 'playable' framerate.. ;)
     
  3. jlippo

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,329
    Likes Received:
    425
    Location:
    Finland
  4. KKRT

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2009
    Messages:
    1,040
    Likes Received:
    0
    #1224 KKRT, Jan 18, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2012
  5. Andrew Lauritzen

    Moderator Veteran

    Joined:
    May 21, 2004
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    454
    Location:
    British Columbia, Canada
    Yeah even 4x MSAA looks significantly better to my eyes still... but I'd definitely like to see it on a real 3D scene.
     
  6. KKRT

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2009
    Messages:
    1,040
    Likes Received:
    0
    4x MSAA isnt better, i checked it, maybe when You use really low angle on whole fence field, but still on some edges is much worse. 16xQCSAA is better on subpixel features on low angles, but its worse upclose and with shading option on. 8x CSAA is comparable except for one cases, a link of two fences links, there is some aliasing that its not solved by SMAA.

    I have quite low res monitor [1280x1024], i'm interested how it's solved on 1080p or higher res. It would be nice to also have supersample option like in FXAA 4.
     
  7. Andrew Lauritzen

    Moderator Veteran

    Joined:
    May 21, 2004
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    454
    Location:
    British Columbia, Canada
    I'm looking at ability to integrate over regions, not edge gradients (which are easy, and uninteresting) as I've mentioned about 100 times in this thread. Tilt the grid and jiggle it back and forth and it's very clear that even 4x MSAA is superior temporally, which is what matters.

    The goal of these things anti-aliasing algorithms is not primarily to make static images look good, but rather to limit the amount of temporal flickering, shimmering and flashing that you get. To that end I'm glad they've posted a demo rather than static pictures, but I would love to see some real scenes in there to see how much the theoretical grid temporal stability results impact the results in practice. I'm also glad that people are starting to (re)incorporate non-uniform sub-sampling patterns into these reconstruction filters, but I'd really like to see results that are strictly better than MSAA (i.e. *worst case* they revert to the MSAA results at similar sample counts).
     
    #1227 Andrew Lauritzen, Jan 18, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2012
  8. snarfbot

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2007
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    188
    well at any rate t2x looks way better than smaa 1x, while having similar cost in frame time.

    4x and s2x look significantly better, but take twice as long at least on my 4890. i think it honestly looks better than 4x msaa for aliasing on diagonals, but it has much worse moire if you zoom all the way out.
     
  9. Andrew Lauritzen

    Moderator Veteran

    Joined:
    May 21, 2004
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    454
    Location:
    British Columbia, Canada
    Yeah I'm not sure how much to trust the performance on a contrived scene like that. All of them seem far too slow really so I imagine it's just bottle-necked on rendering ridiculous geometry mostly. Furthermore without considering a realistic cost of shading, you can't really make a comparison at all, so I'd take any performance numbers in the demo with a huge grain of salt.

    Also the "temporal AA" checkbox doesn't seem to do anything. in the cases that I've tried... I like to disable any temporal AA since it just confuses the comparison. Show me the version with it pre-integrated, and if it's too slow then we can fall back on temporal super-sampling. Fundamentally it really is just a somewhat less robust way to do super-sampling, and thus uninteresting when comparing raw quality.
     
    #1229 Andrew Lauritzen, Jan 18, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2012
  10. Deadly Towers

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think the "temporal repojection" checkbox just enables reprojection so you don't have ghosting in the temporal modes
     
  11. Andrew Lauritzen

    Moderator Veteran

    Joined:
    May 21, 2004
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    454
    Location:
    British Columbia, Canada
    Ah ok, that would make sense.
     
  12. IrYoKu

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2010
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Zaragoza
    Please take into account that what we are showing in our demo is a worst case scenario. A very high contrast grid which can be moved very very fast.

    The performance numbers obviously cannot be taken into account, for that we already measured in real scenes and gave numbers in the paper ;-)
     
  13. fellix

    fellix Hey, You!
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
    Messages:
    3,486
    Likes Received:
    397
    Location:
    Varna, Bulgaria
    Turn the shading on and it becomes a real pixel shimmering hell. :D

    On a side note, I'm surprised the CSAA 16x mode is giving worse output than 4xMSAA, especially at the fine details. I thought the extra gobs of coverage samples should provide more balanced weights for the pixel resolving. The same could be concluded for CSAA 16xQ vs. MSAA 8xQ to some extent.
     
  14. IrYoKu

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2010
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Zaragoza
    Actually that is the worst case for all methods shown in the demo, MSAA and CSAA included =)
     
  15. fellix

    fellix Hey, You!
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
    Messages:
    3,486
    Likes Received:
    397
    Location:
    Varna, Bulgaria
    I think it would be nice if there's an option to load a background image in the demo for more fair IQ evaluation -- or just a uniform colour picker. All black is indeed too extreme.
     
  16. Andrew Lauritzen

    Moderator Veteran

    Joined:
    May 21, 2004
    Messages:
    2,526
    Likes Received:
    454
    Location:
    British Columbia, Canada
    Oh I know, but that's precisely how we should be comparing these techniques of course :) In cases where they all look similar, it's obviously harder to spot where the real differences lie. That said, I would love to see it in a more representative scene as well.
     
  17. snarfbot

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2007
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    188
    say you built a cheap brazos system with a video capture card, would that be able to run fxaa 4 or smaa tx2 at a reasonable framerate, just processing a video feed from a dedicated gaming computer ofc.

    maybe in the future amd or nvidia, intel, maybe even lucid would implement it as an extension of virtu. offloading the post aa to a separate videocard, or integrated gpu.

    just seems like a good feature to add, if theyre already routing the video through the integrated graphics. might as well spruce it up a bit.
     
  18. Dwarden

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    72
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Czech Republic
    Hello everyone,
    i would like to inform You that we decided to implement SMAA 2.7 into our titles
    (alongside already existing FXAA 3.11)

    atm. it's available in public betas of

    ARMA 2: Operation Arrowhead
    Take On Helicopters

    and it is expected to be released in next full updates of the games (both titles are DX9)

    ofcourse we are looking into improved SMAA for our DX11 title ARMA 3

    readme with legal and credits given and thanks are included with the betas and will be part of patch

    next to thanks to authors and theirs partners
    i must thanks everyone in this thread for information, insight and feedback cause that's what helped me in discussion within our company about them
     
  19. Man from Atlantis

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2010
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    6
    Unofficial TXAA Info

    http://www.timothylottes.blogspot.pt/2012/03/unofficial-txaa-info.html
     
  20. KKRT

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2009
    Messages:
    1,040
    Likes Received:
    0
    From neogaf, dunno where guy got it.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    There is some info on hardcocp
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...