Out of curiosity, what percentage of GT4 players do you think played with wheels?
Almost 3 Years And PS3's First Party Still Does Not Have A Killer App?
- Thread starter TEXAN*
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Out of curiosity, what percentage of GT4 players do you think played with wheels?
This is the real point here. CoD:MW2 will be the biggest PS3 title this year. Assassin's Creed might be #2 even. How far ahead of the next PS3 exclusive in line will be interesting to watch for. It won't help that, once again, more of their titles got delayed. MAG is now 2010 along with Heavy Rain. So as of now they're going into the Holidays with Uncharted and Ratchet as their big titles? Hardly the holiday onslaught. When your top sellers are multiplatform and the competing console is know for better MP sales on these, then you've got to be wondering what you need to do to win over your EXISTING userbase. Win them over first, that way you atleast get word of mouth going.
Get a blog if you don't want a discussion. And I was to he point--but it takes a thoughtful reply to interact with opinions presented as "statements of fact." As it is your below response doesn't quote me and yet again categorically states things I didn't say. You would have been better off just ignoring my response if you didn't want to honestly interact with me.
Where do I do that... I presented it as a multifaceted issue where word of mouth is actually quite relevant. As I pointed out online games requite social and offer value and that is something a lot of Sony 1st party titles failed to address (Uncharted, Lair, Heavenly Sword, etc). Further Sony had a lot of word of mouth--the nasty aura of their poor PR, a number of 1st party duds, downplaying traditional exclusives (like GTA), performance issues on their platform, HD optical war, etc.
But as far as games were going they as a 1st party have failed to produce titles that people wanted when they wanted them. Take KZ2 as an example. It was late. Better looking games were already on the market (e.g Crysis) and the, "OMGWTFBBQ!" next gen graphics leap was already done by Gears in 2006. But word of mouth...
If anything, the WORD OF MOUTH of FPS gamers kevetching about the poor controls in the demo was a great example of WORD OF MOUTH biting a title with a dubious track record (KZ1) to begin with.
As I mentioned (I wasn't ignoring word of mouth) there have been a number of classic examples of smash hits being built on word of mouth. And overhyped turds being cut short due to the same.
Pretty low view of consumers there. With hundreds of titles released every year it is difficult for peak exposure, but consumers have all sorts of criteria for games that are influenced by other factors. But it isn't hard to say Nascar fans want good Nascar racing games, or that Halo fans want another Halo. As far as features people ask for stuff all the time, the issue is picking the right features that are technically possible and are the most appealing.
Part of it is luck, but some companies make more luck than others.
As I said they want what they want, when they want it, at the price they want. It seems the reason you aren't quoting me is because your response is pre-canned and ignoring my points.
As for almost identical offerings I disagree. The lifecycle is a difference, but cost of entry is quite divergent as well. In terms of software multiplatform has been an issue for Sony (smaller back library, less quality) and in terms of exclusives MS has more, in more genres. In terms of 1st party published titles life cycle is a huge issue--as I noted--and Sony being 2 years late "been there done that" isn't what I would call "identical."
But none of this really addresses a core issue: Sony's own consumers aren't making titles into Killer Apps. If KZ2 was what you say it is, with 20M customers the title should have generated significant word of mouth and sold well. This in turn has a positive effect.
Well to the point: you are wrong!
Shoote fans are picky--especially about controls.
Are you a serious shooter fan? If not I would back off this point because I don't think you would understand that shooter fans want responsive games and a pretty game with crappy controls = a crappy game.
No amount of hype, pixie dust, corporate magic marketing, and platform advocacy can diminish such.
As for Gears1 it did have issues, but those didn't diminish the "funfactor" nor were they "show stoppers." The game brought a new gameplay dynamic to the masses as well as a fresh take on MP as well as Coop. It had great graphics for 2006 (MUCH better than PS2 graphics) and sound.
No game is perfect, I never said a killer app needs to be (I said the opposite). But Gears was "first" (your point, one I already made as well) and did the things consumers wanted on a platform they had or was more accessible. It doesn't really matter if a game in 2009 brings similar things to the table when consumers moved on. Introducing a Tetris clone in 2010 isn't a certain success. Doing so with broken controls makes it even harder...
COD4's SP is loved by a ton of gamers. For those who are looking at technology they will pretty much hate it, but what gamers here at B3D miss is that the game has an excellent "story" for a shooter, good pacing, a lot of variety, and is an over the top movie experience. It isn't intended to be an AI showcase. Their AI sucks, but so does every other game out there. Just some are worse than others! COD4's weakness in AI though didn't detour a lot of consumers from LOVING the experience.
And it doesn't hurt that COD4 has great direction and production values set in a time people WANT and a conflict they can relate to. But that is kind of a side point because KZ2 was quite interesting to me in the MP arena, and what turned off a ton of the people I know is hearing people who BOUGHT a PS3 for KZ2 and hate every moment of it. So yes, I won't even give it a try when my MP Shooting buddies lament the controls and the general online integration issues.
The install base was large enough to foster MUCH better sales (as the 360 and Wii show at comprable times in their install base and software sales at the time).
To be short and blunt: The PS3 has, and has had, the install base to have HUGE selling software. A couple Multiplatform games HAVE sold really well. This is an excuse not based on facts. The facts are the PS3 could sustain huge selling software IF the software exhisted that appealed to PS3 consumers.
Maybe Sony needs to look at Nintendo and re-invent itself and start making software that their fans want.
The problem I see is you have distilled the issue down to one point. I think it is much more multifaceted and Sony didn't only lose on price point, being a year late, or offering "similar" software later. I think it is a cascade effect of a whole host of issues (including the dubious quality issues) compounded by the fact there is successful software on the PS3, it just isn't Sony's IPs at this point.
I think Sony has misunderstood a couple markets, and this is an important point. I think their general inexperience in the popular shooter genre has hurt them (there is a reason Halo and COD have snappy controls). I also think their attitude toward online with the PS2 and lack of preperation for online being a key component, hardware and software, for early adopters in this generation has been an issue that made many of their titles less compelling.
And I am going to agree with DonaldDuck, I think Sony put themselves in their own corner with the delay/pricing and rhetoric and have been far too focused on evangalizing technology over the merits of "fun gameplay" and would have been FAR better off getting GoW3 and GT5 out the door in 2006/2007 and taking an iterative approach instead of the one they have taken. It is going to be difficult for GT5 to be the killer app it should be when the 360 has more racing games, more racing sims, and FM2 will probably be out 3 years before GT5 and FM3 will have closed the gap in some areas and excell in others. As a racing fan, from my meek opinion, I have to say that getting a cheaper cnosole for more game time with a genre I like is a better move. I am sure other consumers think the same way. But what is left to be seen is whether PS3 owners are going to buy 4-6M copies of GT5 in the first year. It has the install base and there is no reason it shouldn't. So far PS3 consumers haven't be pulling the numbers they should on exclusive content.
Thats way too big for me to read and reply. A quick scan though tells me that you miss my points and ended up in endless cycle!
Dude I didnt say I dont want a discussion.
I said I want short and direct to the point. Not a "who's going to write the biggest reply until one gives up" contest.
You cant just write as much as you want and force someone to read everything and "interact" with you like that.
Help me out here.
It needs a price drop as well in order to drive boxes.
Did Forza 2 sell as much as any of the GT games?
Will Forza 3 manage to get the market that GT used to have?
GT broke sales records btw. So there are probably chances. Unless Forza 3 makes a tremendous presence
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@ Joshua Luna. Taking all your points into account makes me wonder if Sony is even trying to make Killer Apps.
Giving so many first party studios a chance to create new IP's keeps them from capitalising on proven franchises. And allowing them to take as much time as they need decreases the chance at having the right game at the right time.
For all their years in the gaming industry Sony has only a single franchise that sold 10 million copies of a game, which are the GT games. I don't think there is anything that would have kept them from releasing GT5 years ago if they wanted to.
Giving so many first party studios a chance to create new IP's keeps them from capitalising on proven franchises. And allowing them to take as much time as they need decreases the chance at having the right game at the right time.
For all their years in the gaming industry Sony has only a single franchise that sold 10 million copies of a game, which are the GT games. I don't think there is anything that would have kept them from releasing GT5 years ago if they wanted to.
I think Sony was producing mainly niche titles internally or titles that covered various types of gamers to build the overall arsenal of the console's quality library in the past. Probably they relied on a good software portfolio than a single title to communicate the strength of the brand and sell.
Even GT took form as a personal dream of Kazunori Yamauchi but ended up being huge
The biggest selling titles were usually third party or second party and with each generation Sony helped second party developers to produce new hits.
Jak and Rachet and Clank are probably two of those. Insomniac and Naughty Dog came with new IP's with each generation and did well since the PS1 and PS2 had a huge and varied demographics to sell to.
They tried the same thing with Resistance and Uncharted. The presence of the PS3 and its userbase wasnt growing fast enough to help these titles become known and popularized as well as their older efforts on the PS2 and PS1.
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Silent_Buddha
Legend
I'm sure they are trying to. But they don't seem to be very focused at the moment.
In some ways I don't think the gaming division has a very cohesive driving force behind it as it did when Kutaragi was pushing it.
While his vision of a next gen console certainly led to the delays and costs, I think still PS3 would have benefitted overall in the long run with his cohesive vision driving it. He made a LOT of corportate enemies with his "do it my way or else" attitude, but he was also able to keep it all focused, and succeeded.
Then again perhaps the console landscape has changed so much that even he wouldn't have been able to do much to connect the PS3 userbase with its exclusives.
I still find it absolutely mind boggling that there is no PS3 exclusive RPG for example. Not to say it would be a killer app, and it probably wouldn't. But it just appears to be a symptom of the disconnection between the Sony now compared to the Sony of the past that guided both the PS1 and PS2 into the console monsters that they were.
Regards,
SB
Well since you are not a PS3 owner you seem to lack some PS3 knowldge.
Valkyria Chronicles
White Knight Chronicles
Demon's Soul
Disgaea 3
Are a few well received exclusive RPGs.
I don't have the numbers, but I'm pretty sure Forza nor Forza 2 outsold any GT game, but then, the GT games were on ps2 which had a huge install base and that was many years ago.
I don't know how many bought gt5 prologue, but that should be a good indication of the audience for gt5. Unless of course, they are bored with it, or also happen to have xb360's and find Forza3 interesting enough to sway their purchase there instead of gt5.
I think GT5 will absolutely sell and sell well, but I'm not sold on the idea that it will move boxes this late in the game.
Disgaea 3 and Valkyria Chronicles are tactical RPGs. Demon's Soul is an action RPG, and neither it nor WKC (which I own, by the way, great game) have been released in the US yet.
Compare this with, let's see... Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, Star Ocean 4, Infinite Undiscovery, Tales of Vesperia, and Mass Effect to name a few on the 360. Sure, some of these games are making their way to the PS3, like Eternal Sonata has already, but it's been a long wait that's not over yet! Meanwhile, the Playstation has lost important exclusives like Final Fantasy.
If you enjoy Japanese RPGs, you need an Xbox.
If I recall GT3 came around Christmas 2001. It was around one years old so the console was still new. Dont remember the userbase then. But I remember that it broke world record sales despite being on a new console. So I guess the userbase must have been significant but not huge. The EU launch was delayed like always too. It was also bundled with consoles and moved tons of units. The PS2 was outsold almost everywhere at Xmass where I was. Thats a testament of its appeal at the time
I am not sure how things will evolve now that there is a competitor in the market. This time the next GT will come 3 years after launch and 4 years after the start of this generation.
So this might be another victim of bad timing and the existence of close alternatives from competition like Forza 3.
GT3 came early with the PS2 and thus could impress more.
The PS2 was benefited by better technology and the fast introduction of key titles before anyone else could do much about it, such as GT and Final Fantasy. So BOOM there you have people spreading the word about the greatness of the PS.
Once you start well, you build brand awareness and things move smoother and marketing is more effective too.
The PS3 failed to make the right start, with a price that wasnt affordable, a year + old delay and small library compared to competition, while technologically the performance was identical. It didnt make the right impact for people to give enough attention to its later offerings. The consequences of slow movement and bad start of the product's life cycle carried on.
Its only left to be seen how well GT5 will perform after this
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^ GT3 came out in the summer of 2001. GT's brand awareness started on the PS1 and it's something that competitors like Forza have been trying to diffuse.
Halo 2 moved hardware late in the game to note one example. At any rate, Sony shipped 3.67 million units of GT5 Prologue (disc and digital), while Forza 2 shipped 4 million.
So if a glorified demo sold that many, I'd think that a full game with a larger user base will do well. GT has its fans that were never swayed by any competitor offering and its stronghold, like Namco's Tekken series, is Europe where Sony is doing best.
Combine with price drop, and you've got a killer app.
Halo 2 moved hardware late in the game to note one example. At any rate, Sony shipped 3.67 million units of GT5 Prologue (disc and digital), while Forza 2 shipped 4 million.
So if a glorified demo sold that many, I'd think that a full game with a larger user base will do well. GT has its fans that were never swayed by any competitor offering and its stronghold, like Namco's Tekken series, is Europe where Sony is doing best.
Combine with price drop, and you've got a killer app.
specwarGP2
Regular
GT5 will be PS3's killer app, just as earlier GTs were on previous playstations. I think when GT5 does launch it will be something very special and Sony is saving it in conjunction with a price drop to convince GT fans who are still on PS2 to migrate over to PS3.
I was talking about awareness regarding the console, not Gran Turismo specifically. But yeah I agree.
But why save it? Even if initial sales are lower because of a higher pricepoint, does that matter if GT5 is truly untouchable by other racing games. The fans can just pick it up whenever they feel the PS3 is at a right price for them. Some might even be convinced to buy it a the current price.
I really see no reason to hold back anymore. Anything they still want to add to it can simply be done through DLC.
Actually, you need a DS (maybe a PSP), but we mostly don't like to acknowledge that it exists here on B3D.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Yeah PSP has some nice JRPGs. I kinda wish I'd gotten a DS instead though. Unfortunately budget doesn't allow me to have both, although maybe I'll sneak in a DS this holiday season.
Regards,
SB
I have both and I enjoy them, but I often find that these RPGs are too long and involved for portable gaming. I typically end up playing them at home, but in that case, I'd much rather be playing on my entertainment center. Maybe if the PSP video output could fill the screen...
At the moment, I've got games going in Star Ocean: First Departure and Final Fantasy IV, but I haven't played either for a few weeks.
specwarGP2
Regular
I see your point, but I think pre release hype can generate a lot of momentum for potential sales. I don't think Sony would want to damage GT5's reputation with weak sales by launching it at time when people just aren't buying PS3 because of it's high price.
See not that hard is it?
The PS3 customers are just not what they used to be, Sony lost their market to the Wii, not to the 360. The Wii is todays PS2, it has a broad appeal.
The result is that PS3 buyers are a widespread bunch of anything from Blu-Ray lovers (funny how NO one bought a PS3 for Blu-Ray when the HiDef war was brewing and now they come out from their rabbit holes
) to hardcore Sony fans. I think it makes sense that "big" 3rd party games like COD sells well, it has a broad appeal among everyone from the Hardcore Sony crowd to the Blu-Ray lovers while something like Uncharted isn´t mentioned over Coffee or Beer at work.The Killer apps are their, imho the PS3 offers the old school gamers the best Killer apps there is, there just isn´t that many gamers on the PS3 platform
Lucid_Dreamer
Veteran
I think you are assuming all or most PS3 owners are of a like mind. That's generally what's needed to sell huge numbers of a particular title. For instance, if most people on X360 want FPS games, guess which titles will sell in huge numbers (especially at about twice the user base in the US). If X360 owners appetites were mainly different, the sales of certain titles most likely wouldn't be as high.
PS2 has over 150 million user base (100million in it's booming heyday). Yet, titles, multiplatform or otherwise, didn't/don't regularly sell 10 million copies (or 5 million for the matter).
EDIT:
Why do some people think you can't evangelize technology AND "fun gameplay"? It's like some Wii people that think a game can't be a much "fun", if the graphics are HD. I can't see logic in that thinking. GT3 and GT4 were fine on the PS2 (over 150 million sold) with long development time. NOW, with GT5 they should rush? I don't get it. GT5 should take longer when it's about twice the game FM3 is.
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