But isn't the premise of "next gen" new IO/SSD use, faster ram etc... to have highest LOD at close range, without see the transition, due to very fast data transfert, be it open world or not ? I don't think CP77 uses those fast data trasnfert yet even on PC aside from conventionnal loading. I tried to see LoD transitions and pop in in the UE5 demo, and it's so hard to find, that's the kind of things that could make CP77 look even more impressive, and that would have, to me, the same impact as RT.
But isn't the premise of "next gen" new IO/SSD use, faster ram etc... to have highest LOD at close range, without see the transition, due to very fast data transfert, be it open world or not ? I don't think CP77 uses those fast data trasnfert yet even on PC aside from conventionnal loading. I tried to see LoD transitions and pop in in the UE5 demo, and it's so hard to find, that's the kind of things that could make CP77 look even more impressive, and that would have, to me, the same impact as RT.
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Deleted member 11852
Guest
I agree, but that doesn't negate the massive disparity in quality of models and animation between main cast NPCs and the random NPCs you see around Night City. Because models like Wako, Judy and Panam look so good, every generic NPC looks extra bad.
In time, more horsepower and procedural generation for models (especially hair), animation twinned with Jali for lip-syncing will go a long way to help.
None of this has stopped me thoroughly enjoying the game. It reminds me a lot like Skyrim, a lot of promised and it's delivered maybe about half but what is there is good, but it could have been so much better with more time.
I do think this discussion needs some real perspective on the quality of NPCs in Cyberpunk 2077 - as they are rather fine looking for an open world game. So far I have only seen people post low resolution compressed screengrabs of youtube videos in indirect lighting to say the NPCs in Cyberpunk look bad or something.
They look completely fine if they have a direct shadow term allowing their geometry detail to come out (and yes, the random NPCs in the game do have sub-surface scattering like the hero character models):
I think the NPC models even look fine in indirect lighting (with RT of course), as long as you are not using compressed youtube screenshots to show that off (which will invariably compress out the detail variation):
I think this thread has had a lot of exaggeration about the quality of CP2077's NPC models - and oddly no one even bothering to load up the game and post screens of them? They look completely fine, great even.
So much hysteria, RT is great on Cyberpunk 2077 and I will repeat it is a generational leap. I think alternative methods will dominate on consoles for GI and shadows and maybe too on AMD RDNA2 GPU because AMD performance in RT is weak. This is just a fact. If performance was good, they would use RT everywhere they can.
We have people shitting on ML reconstruction because AMD will not use it. It would be cool to have one and it would benefit a lot to RDNA2 GPU because performance is not as good at 4k.
For RT reflection, there is no compromise at all. I think it will probably be the most used RT effect on consoles and AMD GPUs.
And AMD did not lie, they talked about selective RT.
We have people shitting on ML reconstruction because AMD will not use it. It would be cool to have one and it would benefit a lot to RDNA2 GPU because performance is not as good at 4k.
For RT reflection, there is no compromise at all. I think it will probably be the most used RT effect on consoles and AMD GPUs.
And AMD did not lie, they talked about selective RT.
BillSpencer
Regular
Aside from the screenshots being 1080P (? could be jpg compression ) upscales, those character models look gorgeous! Especially the skin rendering is very nice.
I can see low consoles resolution would make them look worse than for example horizon or RDR2 on xbox , but not from a technical perspective, merely resolution wise.
I'm struggling to understand how the following statements:
"So am I the only one here who looks at this video and thinks that, on about 75% of the examples @Dictator shows to highlight the benefits of RT-ON, the emperor is kind of missing his pants and using polkadot underwear?"
"Within the majority of the scenes @Dictator shows there is indeed a discernible difference in lighting and/or shadow fidelity, but to me it seems to be more of an academic exercise than an obvious difference in immersion"
Should not be interpreted as you suggesting that " the majority of the RT doesn't look any better on than off" Yes you agree there is a difference, but you seem to be quite clearly arguing that the difference isn't actually a visual improvement.
If you're now saying that the RT in CB2077 does bring a visual improvement then we're in agreement and can probably leave it there.
I still disagree with your assertion that there is a problem with the NPCs though, especially to the apparently extreme extent of them being some sort of white elephant in the room. In my opinion the NPC's are very high quality for a game of this genre, and I addressed that point with video evidence in my earlier post to you which hasn't yet been answered. Of course it's always possible to cherry pick some particularly bad looking NPC pics (I have some great examples if we're going to go down that road) but the average quality level is great, and a clear step up over last gen equivalents as far as I can see.
But are not RT reflections the most resource intensive aspect of the RT implementation in CB2077? And didn't you say that "there are scenes where the visual impact is very large, like the water reflecting the city" which you considered to be the exception over the majority of less noticeable effects?
I think we all need to relax a little. I'm certainly not trying to be dishonest, I'm not even sure at this point what you were originally referring to when you said I was ""accusing you of stuff you didn't write". That's pretty vague and you linked back to a post of mine that had 6 separate responses in so I simply picked the one that seems to have garnered the most robust reaction. If I guessed wrong then I apologise.
So I assume your initial issue is the one you cite above and not the one I originally addressed? Or is this a different one? I'm getting confused.
Anyway, with regards to the above, you did specifically reference Miles Morales in that first post referencing what you saw as it's more efficient implementation of RT than CB2077. If I misinterpreted that as you saying you think MM (or any other Sony exclusive for that matter) looks better overall than Cyberpunk 2077 and that is in fact not what you think, then I apologise again. Not that there would be anything wrong with thinking that if you did. As I said above, this is all highly subjective so there's no real right and wrong in terms of which you find more visually appealing assuming we're ignoring the technical aspects of the underlying presentation where a more objective analysis is obviously possible.
Yeah it is jpg compression partially, those host I use there abload.de unfortunately cannot take the 10+MB pngs
I do think this discussion needs some real perspective on the quality of NPCs in Cyberpunk 2077 - as they are rather fine looking for an open world game. So far I have only seen people post low resolution compressed screengrabs of youtube videos in indirect lighting to say the NPCs in Cyberpunk look bad or something.
They look completely fine if they have a direct shadow term allowing their geometry detail to come out (and yes, the random NPCs in the game do have sub-surface scattering like the hero character models):
I think the NPC models even look fine in indirect lighting (with RT of course), as long as you are not using compressed youtube screenshots to show that off (which will invariably compress out the detail variation):
I think this thread has had a lot of exaggeration about the quality of CP2077's NPC models - and oddly no one even bothering to load up the game and post screens of them? They look completely fine, great even.
The last NPC looks like a bit Steven Strait, the guy playing James holden is The Expanse.
BillSpencer
Regular
Those screens actually remind me a little bit of seeing GT5 (or maybe GT5 prologue) for the first time; until that moment it was always as if the cars were rendered in a separate pass, but with that game it was like they were actually on the road beneath the sky and between the buildings. It could have been me seeing IBL for the first time in action, but it all looked really grounded.
The same with your screenshots; it's like the characters are fully part of the world. As if they are part of the environment if that makes sense lol. I can fully understand now that if the non-RT lighting modes don't offer that, it would look more like a realtime game instead of an offline render, like it does in your screens (which I prefer).
On a side note, it's also admirable how the characters look realistic but don't cross into the uncanny valley. Call of Duty does this very good as well
Maybe, maybe not. And even if it will, it will dominate on Ampere aswell (perhaps even more so, compute power). I think the consoles are abit too underpowered for such tasks on a big scale anyway. Something like a 6800/XT and later GPUs seem a better tasked for such.
True, one could find Doom 3 more appealing then Days Gone, and theres nothing wrong with that.
Edit: I see alot of critics here against the NPCs. It arguebly is one of the weakest points graphically, but rightfully so, its a open world game in a very large city, with dozens of those NPCs living about. A game like that is never going to lay as much focus on such thing as say FIFA, tekken or a linear corridor game. For being what it is, (see alex screens), the NPCs look very good.
Even the comparison to other open world games..... 2077 has so much more going on, many more npcs and a true next generational leap in most other areas.
The focus on critizizing its NPC quality is actually a sign of how good this game looks.
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Also a bit like Drake. That's what I thought when I first saw him.
What are some places to host high quality Screen? Imgur is pretty bad at image compression. I don't use photomode. Just print screen what I'm seeing.
But really, that video that @pjbliverpool posted really show off the game as it looks when being played at max settings. If others aren't able to experience that, yeah that sucks but doesn't take away from the game actually looking like that when the hardware is capable.
As much fun screenshots are, lighting/shadows/reflections/animation/atmosphere coming together in unison make the world alive when in motion.
But really, that video that @pjbliverpool posted really show off the game as it looks when being played at max settings. If others aren't able to experience that, yeah that sucks but doesn't take away from the game actually looking like that when the hardware is capable.
As much fun screenshots are, lighting/shadows/reflections/animation/atmosphere coming together in unison make the world alive when in motion.
Raytracing has an impact on performance on every GPU but less on RTX GPU. Realtime rendering is a compromise and there is no reason for most devs prioritising consoles to choose a rendering method working bad on it like we have the first example with Unreal Engine 5 or cryEngine or Demons's souls or Call of Duty or Spiderman MM. It does not mean we will not see RT but it will be selective. And no engine have RT GI on console. We have RT shadows with Call of Duty or RT reflection for Watchdog Legions or Spiderman MM.
Epic choose to not integrate SVOGI has a main feature last gen when they had the consoles specifications and it was not performing well on it. Epic is pragmatic and they did some technocal choice for UE5 on consoles.
Devs need to make games working well on consoles after it work better on more powerful GPU and CPU what a reveal?
This was always the case and much more since consoles aren't exotic hardware anymore.After I suppose games ith RTX marketing will maybe have a RTX path on Nvidia GPU and maybe other realtime lighting engine on consoles like Cyberpunk 2077 have RT on RTX GPU and not AMD GPUs.
EDIT: We don't have a title on console with RT shadows and RT reflections. This is only one triangle based RT effect fot the moment.
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Yes, but we will see. No matter what method, its going to impact and cost overall performance, with 10TF, devs will have to prioritize things.
Most of the games you mention there are basically last/current gen games. UE5 demo is just that.... a tech demo. We have had many of those.
I think that what we see today in spiderman, watchdogs, godfall RT, its the kind of ray tracing we can expect, no matter what method. But, the overal normal rendering should improve (i hope).
You can only do so much with the hardware. Studios like the ones behind doom, BF6, and the next GTA, Uncharted etc will probably be creative and do the best with the hardwares they can.
Again, RT in other games on pc vastly outdo what consoles do already. Heck, even godfall, a PS5 game, has the ray tracing exclusively for the pc version of said game, on AMD hardware. And for good reason seeing the performance. A 6800XT is something you'd want if you dont want to compromise on settings, resolutions and framerate (epic setting):
No matter what method, NVdia or not, ray tracing, GI etc, its all going to be costly. We are already at the range of 20 to 30TFs on AMDs side. I think many forget how fast hardware is moving still. Yes optimization etc, will mitigate some, but the days of huge gains for that are long gone.
Edit: Knowing you as a PS gamer, i think you shouldnt care or look too much into all this.... it wont matter what happens on PC or other platforms if your gaming exclusively on PS5. You will get the jawdropping visuals from naughty gods for sure in their next PS5 game, Rift apart will showoff the SSD, GT7 does ray tracing reflections, stray will be doing it in city lights.... its more pc territory to have the best of the best (at a price). The console is for the ones who dont care so much about those things.
Having had the PS5 for a while now, i think its an amazing machine for the price. DS is awesome graphically....
I appriciate your postings, keeping away from getting angry and attacks. While still standing for your opinions. Thats discussions that fit better. Have a happy christmas.
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Because you think Rift Apart or Demon's souls or Stray or GT7 or Kena or Horizon 2 are the pinnacle of what we will see on this consoles or Turing or RDNA2 and Ampere GPU? Like always PC will do the same at better resolution or/and framerate. This is not new I don't even understand the meaning of what you are posting. I just think devs will be careful with raytracing because performances aren't good on AMD GPUs and other GI methods or compromise on shadows goes faster.
https://www.ign.com/articles/spider...ust-scratching-the-surface-of-the-ps5-hardwar
After it does not mean realtime non RT GI have no impact on consoles performance. Nanite is fast enough to run at 60 fps on 1440p DRS on PS5 but Lumen was not fast enough to reach the 60 fps target Epic keeping the same level of quality on the demo on PS5. But they said the they think they have a chance to reach the target without compromising quality. The demo was running at 60 fps on PS5 reducing quality.
EDIT: Console history always show that first year title aren't the best looking game at the end of the generation. All games shown by Sony releasing before 2022 will probably be scratching the surface of what the PS5 is able to do. And this is the same thing for Xbox Series X. 2022 and 2023 will be where expectation will be set and we will know what the consoles can do.
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People always whine.
I really liked the light in Doom 3 and the way the used darkness to intensity the atmosphere.
But what did people do?
Whine that is was "too dark" and they could not play it like COD.
But the "performance whines" made me go back 5 years and take a look..and and look what history shows us:
The Witcher 3 Video Card Benchmark - Poor Software Optimization by CDPR | GamersNexus - Gaming PC Builds & Hardware Benchmarks
We have come full circle...i guess peoples memories really are that bad
And this is EVEN more funny:
The Witcher 3 : Wild Hunt ! [XO, PS4, NX, PC, XBSX|S, PS5] | Beyond3D Forum
Same debate...same "I do not see the difference", "It is not that pretty", "My console runs it fine"
Déjà fucking vu...
It even spun of the same thread as this one:
*spin* "Low Settings" on PC ports vs Consoles | Beyond3D Forum
I am getting to old for this shite
EDIT:
And back then it was "AA" and "Hairworks" certain people was debating....today it is DXR...who would have thought
People always whine.
I really liked the light in Doom 3 and the way the used darkness to intensity the atmosphere.
But what did people do?
Whine that is was "too dark" and they could not play it like COD.
But the "performance whines" made me go back 5 years and take a look..and and look what history shows us:
The Witcher 3 Video Card Benchmark - Poor Software Optimization by CDPR | GamersNexus - Gaming PC Builds & Hardware Benchmarks
We have come full circle...i guess peoples memories really are that bad
And this is EVEN more funny:
The Witcher 3 : Wild Hunt ! [XO, PS4, NX, PC, XBSX|S, PS5] | Beyond3D Forum
Same debate...same "I do not see the difference", "It is not that pretty", "My console runs it fine"
Déjà fucking vu...
It even spun of the same thread as this one:
*spin* "Low Settings" on PC ports vs Consoles | Beyond3D Forum
I am getting to old for this shite
EDIT:
And back then it was "AA" and "Hairworks" certain people was debating....today it is DXR...who would have thought
Hairwork was a bruteforce and inefficient way to render hair. The frosbite compute shading rendering of hair is clever and the quality is much better too and with perfect AA.
Analytical AA they use for hair is better than 1024 MSAA for edge and they use OIT too.
https://www.pcgameshardware.de/Graf...k-auf-Unreal-Engine-4-692670/galerie/1175358/
From a 2009 Tim Sweeny (Epic CEO) about the future of rendering.
There is no debate about DXR just some facts seeing the first console games and the performance of RDNA2 GPU on triangle based raytracing. Same developers begins to use software rasterizing for case where hardware rasterizing is a fact like with Frosbite hair and UE5 Nanite. And devs using non triangle based dynamic GI is a fact with UE5 Lumen, Cryengine and Demon's souls.
And AMD did not lie when they said RDNA 2 will have a few triangle bases raytracing effect.
I hope they will stop with baked lighting. I saw Digitalfoundry John Linneman top 10 games of 2020 and TLOU2 dynamic element during gameplay non being using the same lighting than static element begins to be very visible.
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