A Generational Leap in Graphics [2020] *Spawn*

[PSman1700]

CDPR did it "the right way" this time.
They made a game that was not held back due to consoles (unlike the Witcher 3 downgrade...due to consoles)
This means that PC owners can turn the image quality up to "11".
They then dropped features and/or scaled down features to shoehorn it into the less performing consoles and see the debacle of the PS4/Xbox One version...and the lackluster image quality to boot.
It might run like "RTX 2060" performance (with scaled DOWN raytracing) on the current gen consoles.
I my opinion they should never have tried to scale it down to the previous gen consoles, the should have set the low bar at PS5/Xbox Series X.

Add to that that AMD's raytracing performance is quite lacking compared to NVIDIA's and there is NO way a PS5 will come close to current gen RTX 3000 series performance.

I don't get how people assume that less than/half the performance hardware can match image quality at same resolution/FPS.
It simply does not compute! (pun intended)

Yes, and then some think PS5 will outperform a RTX3090.

The two versions using the same assets is not proof of the game on PC being "last gen". As we've seen amply demonstrated, the last gen consoles are basically incapable of running the game with it's current graphics. That's probably the best evidence we have that CB2077 isn't a "last gen game with next gen lighting". Even without the "next gen lighting", and other settings scaled back, the last gen consoles can't run properly!

By that, he is basically saying the PS4 and PS5 are so close it wasnt even worth releasing a new console. Running something that bad it had to be removed from the store is telling eough that the game isnt designed with 2013 consoles in mind.
Anything can look like a PS6 game, in a slideshow.

In that video it appears the only device which "can't run properly!" is the PC version with its choppy frame rate. Is it an Intel PC with a 2060 non-super or something?

Are you seriously trying to imply that any of the console versions are running better as compared to a high end pc version?

 

[BillSpencer]

The PS4 came out more than 7 years ago... this is most certainly a last gen game with some RT added afterwards.

Ask yourself this: would Crysis have run on the PS2 and the Gamecube?

Are you seriously trying to imply that any of the console versions are running better as compared to a high end pc version?

The framerate in that "high end pc version" is worse. Just stating the facts

 

[PSman1700]

Ask yourself this: would Crysis have run on the PS2 and the Gamecube?

Hold on there, now your comparing to a whole different time era, back when true large leaps actually did happen. to answer your question anyway, yes, crysis could have run on the PS2, at settings lower then lowest, a 10fps framerate, half the resolution of a PS2 game, and alot of hanging and hickups. But, it would run. And, it wouldnt even had resulted in sony pulling the game from the stores.

Comon, your not making any sense, its getting worse and worse for everyday that goes by

Just now, CP2077 is the best looking game out there, not in every area, but as the total graphical package. No game excels at everything. (yet)
Also, im sure even better looking games will release during this generation.

I'd be hugely dissapointed and surprised if the next Uncharted doesnt look better to cp2077, due to its linear style of gameplay and it being a AAA exclusive.
As the best looking of the whole PS5 gen, that will almost certainly be Rockstars game again, whatever that is. Maybe the next doom, or BF6.

 

[chris1515]

The PS4 came out more than 7 years ago... this is most certainly a last gen game with some RT added afterwards.

Ask yourself this: would Crysis have run on the PS2 and the Gamecube?




The framerate in that "high end pc version" is worse. Just stating the facts

The game configuration is not the recommanded one for a 3060, it it was a 3090 it would run much better. This is just pure troll. We will see better looking game but at the end the truth is there if AMD triangle based RT was good, many people would praise the game saying we will see better but this looks good. Basically I think it is the one of the three best looking game of the year with Flight Simulator 2020 and Demon's souls all with different quality.

After doing Demon's souls on RTX PC GPU is possible and it will perform better than on PS5 for all Ampere GPU and some Turing GPU. Some GPU could run the fidelity mode at 4k 60 fps or better framerate. I think next year Cyberpunk 2077 will have one maybe if a miracle happens two triangles based RT effects on PS5 and XSX.

AMD triangle based RT performance is bad, at the end it will push devs to do some other compromises but if it was good maybe everyone would want to use it.

And Ampere GPU continue to perform well in rasterization and better than AMD at 4k. Everything working well on AMD GPU will work well on RTX GPU but the gap in triangle based RT is huge.

 

[SumoSaki]

Once we start seeing ground up PS5 and Series X games we're going to be far more impressed and Cyberpunk will be all but forgotten.

 

[snc]

It's ps4 assets on ps5 let's say it's ps4 vs high end PC. It looks more like a remaster category than remake, that's why i don't see that "next gen leap"

it's just onother proof that adding rt to current gen looking game doesn't make them looks netxgen but for sure makes them looks better

 

[Karamazov]

it's just onother proof that adding rt to current gen looking game doesn't make them looks netxgen but for sure makes them looks better

that gives them that pre rendered look we've been waiting for years.

 

[HLJ]

The PS4 came out more than 7 years ago... this is most certainly a last gen game with some RT added afterwards.

Ask yourself this: would Crysis have run on the PS2 and the Gamecube?




The framerate in that "high end pc version" is worse. Just stating the facts

2:58 in that video cleary shows why they are not comparable...not to mention resolution and frame times are absent.
Damn it just looks ugly on the console compared to the PC.

I think you just disproved your own argument

 

[HLJ]

3:51 is another time where the images do not support your "conclusion"

If people call DLSS "vaseline"...consoles are "smeared butter"

 

[PSman1700]

The game configuration is not the recommanded one for a 3060, it it was a 3090 it would run much better. This is jut pure troll. We will see better looking game but at the end the truth is there if AMD triangle based RT was good, many people would praise the game saying we will see better but this looks good. Basically I think it is the one of the three best looking game of the year with Flight Simulator 2020 and Demon's souls all with different quality.

After doing Demon's souls on RTX PC GPU is possible and it will perform better than on PS5 for all Ampere GPU and some Turing GPU. I think next year Cyberpunk 2077 will have one maybe if a miracle happens two triangles based RT effect on PS5 and XSX.

AMD triangle based RT performance is bad, at the end it will push devs to do some other compromises but if it was good maybe everyone would want to use it.

And Ampere GPU continue to perform well in rasterization and better than AMD at 4k. Everything working well on AMD GPU will work well on RTX GPU but the gap in triangle based RT is huge.

DS for sure is up there, in its own right. Its kinda alone with CP2077 at the top somewhere. Also, all this with PC vs PS5, the ps5 only costs 399 to 599 depending where you are. Its offering a price to performance ratio the pc cant even close to match.
You pay much more for a highend gaming pc, and its always going to offer the best graphics. Those come at a price.
I myself own both, i choose where i want to. For exclusives, i dont have a choice, but atleast i own the platforms.

 

[chris1515]

DS for sure is up there, in its own right. Its kinda alone with CP2077 at the top somewhere. Also, all this with PC vs PS5, the ps5 only costs 399 to 599 depending where you are. Its offering a price to performance ratio the pc cant even close to match.
You pay much more for a highend gaming pc, and its always going to offer the best graphics. Those come at a price.
I myself own both, i choose where i want to. For exclusives, i dont have a choice, but atleast i own the platforms.

FS2020 looks very good too.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

So am I the only one here who looks at this video and thinks that, on about 75% of the examples @Dictator shows to highlight the benefits of RT-ON, the emperor is kind of missing his pants and using polkadot underwear?


Granted, there are scenes where the visual impact is very large, like the water reflecting the city and that car interior with the black guy with a gold metal arm. But a handful of scenes like those don't turn the game into OMG next-genz material.
Plus, in some cases I wonder if we can really say for sure that it's the RT version that is very good or that specific implementation in normal rasterization just came out poorly. I've seen more than one report claiming that asset and scene quality is rather inconsistent throughout the game, which seems to be a byproduct of having different teams producing different sections of the game.

Within the majority of the scenes @Dictator shows there is indeed a discernible difference in lighting and/or shadow fidelity, but to me it seems to be more of an academic exercise than an obvious difference in immersion.
And I think this is especially obvious in CP77 where the general NPC quality seems to be pretty mediocre. Unnamed NPC skin and clothes textures/shaders/geometry seem to be super bland throughout the game, so I wonder if spending more GPU resources on those would have been a better option for immersion than enabling RT.

To make an example of my point, in this scene @Dictator is commenting on the fidelity of the reflection in the ceiling:

But then I wonder if anyone will think "wow, this makes it so much more immersive" when the NPCs look like.. well, this:

And it's not just the NPCs' visual fidelity that seem lacking in this game. Watching the game in motion shows how NPCs always seem to move in straight lines, and they seemingly just change gait direction by completely and perfectly rotating their body which is really immersion breaking IMO (and physically impossible).
In this PoV, I get why some people claim that RDR2 looks better at times. The NPCs not only look much better (they look dirty, sweaty, hairy, there's a higher range of skin tones, etc.) but their movement seems to be a lot more organic than the NPCs in CP77. They either did more / better mocap work for NPCs or their animators did a better job. I think the same goes for NPC movement in Ubisoft games like the latest Watchdogs and Assassin's Creed.



Another thing I wonder about CP77 is how many resources they dedicated to enabling RT (or rather nvidia-only RTX because it's on a whitelist so far) on the PC on day one, and whether these should have been dedicated to the consoles instead.
On one side we have the PC version with all these bells and whistles that serve a small fraction of their PC market (which by itself is a smaller fraction of the total sales compared to consoles). On the other side we have the game running on the consoles so badly that it's being pulled from digital and physical stores, mass refunds everywhere and the publisher on the verge of getting a class-action suit from their investors for deceptive communication.
Nvidia had better been responsible for pushing 99.9% of the engineering efforts to implement RTX in this game, or making this available on release day instead of focusing on the consoles would just be another sign of terrible management.

Cyberpunk 2077 does everything, GI, shadows and reflections. MM is weaksauce RT compared to it.

Perhaps Miles Morales' implementation was just properly studied for maximizing performance-cost / visual-benefit on a platform that is probably around 5 million large already, whereas CP77 may be kind of brute-forcing RT with minimal visual impact after a certain threshold, which then doubles as a marketing campaign for only the higher-end range of the graphics cards from one specific IHV.
In that logic, MM's RT may be weaksauce in terms of computational demands, but CP77's is weaksauce in terms of resource optimization.

On the other hand, I really like that @Dictator made this video where he identifies which RT effects in CP77 are the most effective in the visual upgrades they provide. To me, it's the most useful RT-related CP77 video I've seen so far.
Thank Alex!

 

[BillSpencer]

some facts:
CP2077 came out more than 7 years after the release of the PS4 and Xbox One

7 years before Crysis 1, PS2 was not on the market, Gamecube wasn't announced yet and even Xbox did not exist in the market.
Just for one moment, imagine Crysis 1 also running on N64 and Sega Dreamcast. And people needing to point out specific moments in comparison videos to show that the difference between a 3000 euro pc and a 7+ year old low budget console ?

If that were the case, nobody would have called Crysis 1 a generational leap. Crysis 1 was a generational leap because it could not be done on then current generation hardware that came out 1 year ago, let alone more than 7 years ago.

 

[PSman1700]

But a handful of scenes like those don't turn the game into OMG next-genz material.

Because the game even without RT, at maxed settings on pc, already looks next gen. RT just elevates that.

the scenes @Dictator shows

in this scene @Dictator is commenting

Your postings come over like if your hanging out DF/Dictator, like if hes wrong and all. I dont think its the thread for it.

whether these should have been dedicated to the consoles instead.

God no, this title should never been held back.

On one side we have the PC version with all these bells and whistles that serve a small fraction of their PC market (which by itself is a smaller fraction of the total sales compared to consoles).

Nope, RTX 2060 with DLSS does very, very well. It brings that next gen experience where consoles dont and probably wont for this one. Doubt theres more PS5 users over RTX2060 class gpus and up, which have been around since 2018, closing in on three year old hardware.

This game actually was preorded more for pc then all consoles combined. Its a larger market, and CDPR knew this.

Nvidia had better been responsible

Nope, still no conspiracies going on

Perhaps Miles Morales' implementation was just properly studied for maximizing performance-cost / visual-benefit on a platform that is probably around 5 million large already, whereas CP77 may be kind of brute-forcing RT with minimal visual impact after a certain threshold, which then doubles as a marketing campaign for the graphics cards of one specific IHV.
In that logic, MM's RT may be weaksauce in terms of computational demands, but CP77's is weaksauce in terms of resource optimization.

No matter what, CP2077 is the better looking one here, its not even close. Hence DF thinks its the best looker this year. By a mile imo.

On the other hand, I really like that @Dictator made this video where he identifies which RT effects in CP77 are the most effective in the visual upgrades they provide. To me, it's the most useful RT-related CP77 video I've seen so far.
Thank Alex!

Yeah, he made clear its the best looking game so far, and that RT really makes a gamechaning difference, to the wide public of the internets and forums.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Your postings come over like if your hanging out DF/Dictator, like if hes wrong and all. I dont think its the thread for it.

Well I am just sick and tired of these disingenious and dishonest attempts at turning simple references to one's work into personal attacks. That's just pure trolling.
Welcome to my ignore list. Nothing of worth will be lost, bye.

 

[PSman1700]

Well I am just sick and tired of these disingenious and dishonest attempts at turning simple references to one's work into personal attacks. That's just pure trolling.
Welcome to my ignore list. Nothing of worth will be lost, bye.

Ah ok thanks, one less of the PSquad that personally attacks Have a nice xmax.

some facts:

Your comparing different generations again. Theres more then consoles too, we had HL2, Doom 3, far cry, FEAR etc on pc, looking substantionally better then their console counterparts. And yet still, Crysis was the generational leap, just like CP2077 is today, as mentioned by tech reviewers.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

There's a huge difference between respectfully disagreeing with people (which the vast majority of us do) and comments like those from @PSman1700 who consistently trolls everyone into frustrated responses. Which seems to get the person that's being trolled into getting warnings or their posts deleted.

Not sure how many people have to fall foul to his posts before something can be done.

 

[pjbliverpool]

In that video it appears the only device which "can't run properly!" is the PC version with its choppy frame rate. Is it an Intel PC with a 2060 non-super or something?

edit:

LMFAO! looks like +3000 euros well spent

Careful, this level of nonsense is straying into trolling territory. There's ample performance information out there to allow an informed discussion without bringing this kind of rubbish here.

The PS5 runs without RT, with reduced standard settings, and at a resolution of between 972p to 1188p. In making all those cut backs it's able to run the game at 60fps.

The PC in that video is running with everything set to Ultra including RT and a fixed resolution of 4K with DLSS Quality applied. We already know those settings will net around 40fps on a 3090.

The 2 scenario's are not remotely comparable and it's highly disingenuous to suggest that they are. At these same settings and based on the links above, even if the PS5 were capable of running DLSS we would be potentially looking at single digit frame rates. Without DLSS... well, it's likely you'd be able to count the frames per second on one hand.

And besides all that, the topic was the games performance on PS4/XBO. So why are you showing video's of the PS5? Talk about trying to move the goal posts.

Again, we already know that the PS4/XBO are running the game at 720p and sub 20 fps at times. Is that what you would consider an acceptable console experience?

The PS4 came out more than 7 years ago... this is most certainly a last gen game with some RT added afterwards.

Ask yourself this: would Crysis have run on the PS2 and the Gamecube?

The framerate in that "high end pc version" is worse. Just stating the facts

This is simply untrue. I've already posted the performance links above. Performance on the PS4 is far lower than performance on the PC at those settings and specs despite the settings being vastly lower.

How many games last gen ran at between 20-30fps with drops as low as 15fps at 720p on the PS4? Can you name one? The PS4 is blatantly not capable of running even a massively cut down version of the game to the usual standard of "last gen" games. That alone suggests that the game even without RT goes beyond everything that's come before.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

Careful, this level of nonsense is straying into trolling territory. There's ample performance information out there to allow an informed discussion without bringing this kind of rubbish here.

The PS5 runs without RT, with reduced standard settings, and at a resolution of between 972p to 1188p. In making all those cut backs it's able to run the game at 60fps.

The PC in that video is running with everything set to Ultra including RT and a fixed resolution of 4K with DLSS Quality applied. We already know those settings will net around 40fps on a 3090.

The 2 scenario's are not remotely comparable and it's highly disingenuous to suggest that they are. At these same settings and based on the links above, even if the PS5 were capable of running DLSS we would be potentially looking at single digit frame rates. Without DLSS... well, it's likely you'd be able to count the frames per second on one hand.

And besides all that, the topic was the games performance on PS4/XBO. So why are you showing video's of the PS5? Talk about trying to move the goal posts.

Again, we already know that the PS4/XBO are running the game at 720p and sub 20 fps at times. Is that what you would consider an acceptable console experience?



This is simply untrue. I've already posted the performance links above. Performance on the PS4 is far lower than performance on the PC at those settings and specs despite the settings being vastly lower.

How many games last gen ran at between 20-30fps with drops as low as 15fps at 720p on the PS4? Can you name one? The PS4 is blatantly not capable of running even a massively cut down version of the game to the usual standard of "last gen" games. That alone suggests that the game even without RT goes beyond everything that's come before.

True, though to be fair, the new PlayStation is running a game that's not optimised for a last gen machine in backwards compatibility mode. So while, yes, the PC has a significantly better spec we shouldn't be so quick to judge a BC game on the PlayStation and thereby assume we've seen its maximum capability.

I wouldn't judge a modern GPU by its capacity to run the OG Crysis.

 

[PSman1700]

There's a huge difference between respectfully disagreeing with people (which the vast majority of us do) and comments like those from @PSman1700 who consistently trolls everyone into frustrated responses. Which seems to get the person that's being trolled into getting warnings or their posts deleted.

Not sure how many people have to fall foul to his posts before something can be done.

Then you have people like Billspencer, seeing his posts. And that you dont attack him for, because you know, he likes your platform. Nothing im discussing is even close to trolling. its just unpleasant for DF members to get in their face that their wrong. They say RT makes a huge difference, Tottentranz go on with a long post stating the opposite. Its not what this thread was about.
Also, im not 'trolling everyone'. Im a pc fan, your a ps fan. You dislike my posts because of that reason.

Careful, this level of nonsense is straying into trolling territory. There's ample performance information out there to allow an informed discussion without bringing this kind of rubbish here.

Thing is, he can do it, with the usual backing him. Its intentional and very annoying. Lads, teaming up doesnt make you right.