I never said that you claimed that RSX sucks, but your thread seems to imply a severe design problem which I believe is not there. I believe that Sony initially intended to have a more powerful GPU, but given the costs associated with Cell and Blu-ray it simply was not feasible. 1080P was sold as a feature initially possible on PS3 and in limited cases it still is. I would be more interested to see a thread about "with an engine that makes full utilisation of the RSX+Cell combo" PS3 is more or less equal to such and such a PC GPU standalone part in graphics processing. Of course, we will not know the answer to that sort of question for another few years I presume.
8 ROPs on the RSX. Bad engineering decision?
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I never said that you claimed that RSX sucks, but your thread seems to imply a severe design problem which I believe is not there. I believe that Sony initially intended to have a more powerful GPU, but given the costs associated with Cell and Blu-ray it simply was not feasible. 1080P was sold as a feature initially possible on PS3 and in limited cases it still is. I would be more interested to see a thread about "with an engine that makes full utilisation of the RSX+Cell combo" PS3 is more or less equal to such and such a PC GPU standalone part in graphics processing. Of course, we will not know the answer to that sort of question for another few years I presume.
Personally I believe its already starting to happen with games like Ryu Ga Gotoku Kenzan (Yakuza 3) already released in Japan and the high quality videos of gameplay at gamersyde.com sure the game takes place in ancient Japan but for that developer (SEGA) the game is a graphical monster that so far very few people are talking about as demonstrating alot of the hidden power in RSX's supposedly implied weakness, specially when the game is clearly out rendering the competition with a one year old console.
Resistance 2 has a major edge with Insomniac Games being dedicated enough to take the challenge of programming for a "hard to program for" console with two already released games that proved to be AAA titles on PS3.
Motorstorm 2 is another one I am looking forward to even though I never purchased Ms1 and amazingly enough the trailer so far released seems to imply superior graphics to the E3 05 tech demo estimation but of course we will have to wait for more info but I would have also prefered another platform specific PS3 Ridge Racer sequel.
Well if what has been discovered as well as threw knowledge of game dev's experiances pointing at such a case of the PS3 only having 8 ROP's, will any major games even be able to be done at 1080p in the future?
Forget about the PSN store titles, I am investing into an HD TV in the near future. I can save a boat load of cash settling for a 720p TV than one that can display1080p. Seriously is this going to be the case? I understand blueray can play at 1080p, but what about the games??? looking at buying around a 50" TV too by the way.
Forget about the PSN store titles, I am investing into an HD TV in the near future. I can save a boat load of cash settling for a 720p TV than one that can display1080p. Seriously is this going to be the case? I understand blueray can play at 1080p, but what about the games??? looking at buying around a 50" TV too by the way.
I wouldn't use Yakuza 3 as a power meter for RSX/RSX + Cell. The game looks like a launch title with medicore graphic (technically) but great art. Pre-baked shadows/lighting, projected shadows etc. I think Killzone 2 or Resistance 2 could be used for that or Lair.
Well it was CG and reports from those seeing it live was that it was better than MS1 but not by a lot. Still nice location change. Neverthless Cell is there to help RSX out, how much processing time is sacrificed from other game functions to let Cell help out RSX is up to the devs if they do it.
But there are now several games which use Cell to do some graphic related tasks. IIRC KZ2 engine has 2 SPU's dedicated to geometry related stuff. :smile:
Well it was CG and reports from those seeing it live was that it was better than MS1 but not by a lot. Still nice location change. Neverthless Cell is there to help RSX out, how much processing time is sacrificed from other game functions to let Cell help out RSX is up to the devs if they do it.
But there are now several games which use Cell to do some graphic related tasks. IIRC KZ2 engine has 2 SPU's dedicated to geometry related stuff. :smile:
I doubt it, not for the better looking game titles. Look at how many games have to upscale, not doing true native 1080p. And those games trying to reach 1080p either has serious framerate problems or look average.
I think 720p will be the target for many devs to be able to do more eye-candy to compete with the other platforms.
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Lucid_Dreamer
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Do you mean like RidgeRacer 7 and GT5P?
From their presentation, they are only using 4 SPEs/SPUs for the game to begin with.
I am not that sure about how good Yakuza looks. I downloaded the demo of the game and the graphics looked just ok to me
RR7 is 1080p but GT5P is only about 66% of the way there (1280x1080).
Not for the entire game, just in rendering?
RSX has half the ROPS and half the bandwidth, a 7800GTX would eat it for breakfast.
2 statements out of 3 are wrong
Which ones?
Let me guess...only right is 8 ROPs.
(but how RSX compare with G70/geforce 7800GTX
)The fact that studios with infinite budgets, unlimited time and/or preferential support are able to eek performance out of rsx+cell equivalent to what can be achieved by more typical studios with far less time and far less money on xenos alone hardly indicates that Sony devs are aiming higher.
Heck, if you think there are a lot of rsx sucks posts here, you should check the official Sony dev PS3 support forums. You'll be overwhelmed by the myriad of posts of "...why is this slower than the other console..." or "...but the other console can...", etc, etc, etc. Of course, I'm sure all those developers must be totally wrong, and rsx clearly represents The Pinnacle Of Rendering Performance (tm).
But the best looking games are Sony first party.
Even while most 3rd party games admittedly run better on 360 (though the gap seems to have closed some, it still exists).
Whether this is because MS first party just sucks/hasn't tapped 360 yet, or whether it's indicative of actual performance, I dont know.
A 7800 GTX or any PC videocard for that matter will still be limited greatly by the API being Direct X and Open GL unlike a home console like Playstation 2 and PS3.
Microsoft and the Open GL board do not make graphic processors, ATI and Nvidia do, Matrox, S3, Videologic, and 3d labs used to so beliveing that a GPU will be limited by cut down hardware from a PC part is alot like believing Direct X marketing hype from Microsoft.
Now its true that PS3 uses a custom version of Open GL code that can be ported to PC if the developer feels like it and it may as well be able to use Direct X dev tools since the GPU comes from the PC side of things but doing the latter is probably the reason some like to use terms like "lazy developers"
The engineering decision to go with 8 Rops and 128Bit bus may also have alot to do with technological limitations for a product that would be expected to have a high penetration in homes world wide and in different temperature and power consuming zones.
I do love the idea that many keep wishing for having had a G80 instead though, specially when things like power consumption and heat thermals don't seem to be considered, at 90nm it would have been impossible for Sony to ask to have a 680 Million transistor GPU and at 65nm it would have been a bad engineering decision since it would have made more sense to go with G92 but so what? the console would have been more powerfull but it would have been released in 2008 realisticaly and by then Nintendo would be going for a 2 year lead and XBox 360 for a 3 year lead with price drops and fence sitting gamers breaking down for one, it would have been unpredictable and unlikely if people would have really been willing to pay for a PS3 launched in 2008 instead, even with undisputed technological power.
I personally feel that Sony and Nvidia made the best possible choice in basing the RSX on Nv47/G70 and the fact that its Sony, NOT TSMC that is fabricating RSX GPUs leads me to believe that Sony was being very carefull to make sure that their GPU would work to the best of their specs and not come out half baked out the oven.
Its amazing to me that the PS2 graphics chip would at best be considered a 1997 or 98 ish level technology that benefited from process shrinks to launch at the desired clock speed and I see the same happening with RSX being that Nvidia's Nv30 was considered a failed design (for PC use) and Nvidia worked hard to make Nv35 a much better, more efficient performer that by the time they made it to Nv40 they managed to best their last effort twice.
As for Ryu Ga Gotoku Kenzan (Yakuza 3), here:
http://gamersyde.com/game_1378_en.html
They have 1280x720 resolution MP4 videos that I have downloaded, put in a key and put into my PS3 to basically see the closest thing to running the actual game.
Now Lair as impressive as it was at rendering geometry and effects, to me it was doing a fine job at rendering objects that will mostly be seen as being coming and going from far away distances and to be fair that was Factor 5's first effort
KZ2 and R2 are just FPS so even though the detail will be impressive its still is stuff that comes and goes but you will be really too busy to notice the details since you are gunning and running for your life, Yakuza on the other hand has objects that will come and stay for a while and will have to be convincing for the dramatic scenes where the graphics so far have displayed a great direction and on top of that the game also has relatively fast action with reguards to its fighting engine, I don't see this being possible as some kind of launch title with mediocre technical graphics in no way just like Shenmue and GTAIII needed more than one year since their consoles hit retail for release.
Of course since Yakuza 3 does not feature an armored westerner holding a rifle or a hooded assasin with sharp hidden blades it may have a hard time appealing to most people outside of Japan and maybe Asian countries since the game deals with a historical setting that may seem alien to those not familiar with it or used to seeing it but I don't think that it stops the game from being impressive as a first effort, then again I am not sure what you would expect an impressive effort would be, that all games become FPSs?
As far as the cultural divide, I am even sure the game will be dismissed specially with GTA 4's appearance, specially with that game being on two competing platforms and its more modern, western setting but people will be marveling at its graphics.
If you mean only on PS3, then I agree. If you mean on PS3 and 360, then I don't. I finished both Mass Effect and Uncharted and if you ask me, Mass Effect looks better. I know, it's blasphemy to say that here, but there, I said it. Why do I mention that? Because people post here with broad comments like "To the average consumer PS3 will offer the BEST console graphics in all genres of games." which they have no way of knowing if its even remotely true.
Akumajou said:
I'd make one correction to that. Nvidia made the best possible move. They took their older architecture that was on the way out and inked the deal with it. Now they can sell 50 million+ units of aging 7 series hardware, and at the same time milk the pc market with their newer 8 and 9 series hardware. On NVidia's part it was pure business genius.
Sony on the other hand likely had no choice and got stuck with whatever NVidia offered.
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Butta did mention Uncharted, Ratchet (as in Ratchet and Clank Future: ToD) and GT5 P.
So far in your post there is no evidence that the "other console" or xenos has displayed anything that matches those three fully available, retail games so I fail to see how you believe that Sony devs did not aim high enough with RSX.
Then there is Ryu Ga Gotoku Kenzan (what may end up being called Yakuza 3 for US release) that game's level of graphics just have not been displayed by xenos.
Now I specifically mentioned games that have already hit retail, even if one other them hit it in Japan so far but keep in mind that the xenos enabled console has been out for more than TWO WHOLE YEARS (caps) now so a game that should have surpassed the three that Butta mentioned in the whole geometry and graphical effects department should have already materialized and should be mentioned for scruitny and keep in mind that Saints Row failed to impress those who were used to playing the last gen GTA games with the vanishing textures, objects and technical flaws a plenty.
Therefore I highly question that xenos has the so called edge so something is going on.
Since you always omit this out in your "RSX sucks" posts, can you please clarify one issue:
Have the longer market time of 360 and so called better development tools had any effect on relative ease of 360 development, or was that just another lie (or politically correct response)?
I'd say thats pretty subjective.
Ease of 360 development is first and foremost due to a good gpu that helps you instead of hindering you when making video games. It sounds like an absurd thing to say, but use both sometime and it'll be crystal clear what I mean. By far that is the main reason for ease of development. Secondly would be great tools from day one. Thirdly would be great support. If you've ever had to use Sony tools you would think child birth is easy in comparison. Fourthly would be the year early to market lead time. Now some will argue that the years head start should be #1, but it would have been worthless if the other three items I mentioned didn't come along with it.
FYI, I wouldn't make these kinds of posts if people didn't make broad and sweeping statements that begged to be challenged. You see my posts as "rsx sucks". I see others posts as "PS3 had better graphics than everything and everyone agrees and that is fact and you are poo poo caca if you disagree" post. Well bollox to that.
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