4k resolution coming

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:LOL:
Actually it is exactly the opposite.
The projectors owners get the hard one, while those with tablets and laptops do enjoy higher resolutions, thus quality.

resolution does not equal quality.

what is better

720P H264 L5.1 @ 5000 Kbps or
1080P H264 L5.1 @ 5000 Kbps

one has less but larger artifacts, the other has way more but smaller artifacts.
 
resolution does not equal quality.

The same resolution looks better on smaller display size simply because ppi is higher.

That's why those with smartphones and tables, and new laptops do always enjoy higher quality.


And of course it does, it's fair to assume everything else is equal, you don't have to put a case where you have higher resolution but worse codec. :mrgreen:
 
I dunno , We are finaly back up to 70/90 inch tvs . Alot of people could fit 120 inch tvs on their walls and recreate movie thearters. I know in my small condo my gf and I can put up a 180 inch tv and we'd be about 6-8 feet away from it..... Okay gotta stop drooling
 
The same resolution looks better on smaller display size simply because ppi is higher.

That's why those with smartphones and tables, and new laptops do always enjoy higher quality.

The short viewing distance typical in those applications is why you can still perceive a difference with higher PPI. The PPI your eyes can physically resolve decreases with distance which is why the chart that Shifty posted is relevant. There's nothing subjective about this, it's fact.
 
This classic chart :

resolution_chart-790251.jpg


http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/12/when-does-1080p-make-difference.html
4k would, I estimate, place its ideal viewing distance on a 40" TV at 2.5 feet away. A US sized TV of 60" would need you to sit about 4 feet away. Normal sized TVs are not going to give a better viewing experience at hgher resolutions above 1080p for normal viewing. This makes it a useless feature to chase, at considerable cost. Ergo it's not going to happen. HD managed to start selling to the masses because HD offered some observable upgrade, although lots still can't tell the difference. Trying to sell someone a new 4k TV which doesn't look any better is going to be a hard sell. Only when you are supplying massive screens/projections, will 4k be important, and that'll be a tiny niche. LG's 4k set shown at CES this year was 84". That wants a viewing distance of something like 5 or 6 feet to make the most of 4k. Viewed from 10 feet away, 84" is amply served by a 1080p display. It'll be great for public viewing, like in a shop window where people can get close and check out the detail, but it's a useless consumer specification that won't result in significant numbers of displays, won't find support in consumer goods (have you tried filming and editing home movies at 1080p? Do you really want to blow that many more resources on filming and editing 4k movies??), and so doesn't need to be targeted in consoles. For the tiny niche that will have massive display resolution, they'll be served by high-end PCs.


Oh god, not that thing again.....it's always nice to know that the 12" B/W TV I had as a kid was the true HD experience. I just never thought of watching it at 40 feet away instead of 4 inches. I was so naive back then.

Actually the ultimate is of course the 1p. Any size, any distance, always the a true full benefit.
 
I really don't care about distance, it's irrelvant to me, like the above chart too. :oops:
Well it's not irrelevant to anyone with a scientific interest in creating displays and content that is good quality.

This ridiculous image:

5ycajd.jpg

...is utterly meaningless. By the same definition, why not ask for 12k images? They'll be better, right? Human visual resolving power is finite. Most people don't have perfect vision. Video content is already compressed. you just want pixels for pixels sake without understanding what that value represents. You're talking like those ignorant consumer who buy a camera with more megapixels to view 1080p images on a TV or print out 6x4" photos, for which only 8 megapixels is needed, and these same consumers will ignore completely the imaging optics which are far more important in capturing detail.
Oh god, not that thing again.....it's always nice to know that the 12" B/W TV I had as a kid was the true HD experience. I just never thought of watching it at 40 feet away instead of 4 inches. I was so naive back then.
That's just being stupid. The chart is based on the eye's resolving power in terms of degrees of vision, rather than a pixel count. And this is an actually meaningful number - resolving power to 1/60 th of a degree. That's how posters with big blobs of colour work at a distance. That's how tiny little ink drops on a 300 dpi photo work. So yes, your 12" BW set from yesteryear would have given the same resolution in terms of resolvable detail if viewed from far enough away, but it'd also have only occupied a tiny space in your FOV and been hard to see what was on the screen. That's why we like bigger screens, so we can see more at comfortable distance. And on larger screens we need more pixels for them to not be discretely discernable. But above the viewer's optical limits is a complete waste of time and resources. There is zero logic behind wanting more pixels in a screen that is going to be viewed from a distance where those more pixels won't make any difference to the image quality. 4k screens with more pixels will be useful for 3D, but there are far more important and worthwhile issues that need to be addressed to get better image quality, such as pixel transtition time to elliminate ghosting, or colour representation to overcome RGB's limits.
 
4k sounds nice and all, but there won't be any content for it until 5-10 years from now. Tell me which streaming service (Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, iTunes, Google etc) is going to support 4k resolution in the next five years?
 
By the same definition, why not ask for 12k images? They'll be better, right?

Yes, it is better, and when 8K becomes obsolete in 10-15 years, you'll see it- whatever you want- 12K, 16K, 24K, and so on... ;)

you just want pixels for pixels sake without understanding what that value represents. You're talking like those ignorant consumer who buy a camera with more megapixels to view 1080p images on a TV or print out 6x4" photos, for which only 8 megapixels is needed, and these same consumers will ignore completely the imaging optics which are far more important in capturing detail.

That's not true for me.
Take a look again at those SD and HD TVs on the previous image in that same post. What do you see and what don't you see? See any difference or not?

BTW: When talking about those new standards they always advertise the picture quality beyond the resolution- you have richer colours, better contrast, etc. You know what I'm talking about. More interactive options, etc..
 
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That's just being stupid. ........

You're right, that chart is just stupid. Or should I say how people use it is stupid.

The underlying graph is distance to size. So at a given distance, what size screen should I have (or vice versa). If that D:S ratio is correct then the IQ will increase with resolution. If it's not correct, then a question can be asked of does an increase of resolution help offset the incorrect ratio? There, the answer could be anywhere from helps significantly to not much to hurts IQ.

Do people use it that way? No, they use it to promote their opinion on resolution.

And resolution is only one part of IQ. Luminance, Contrast, Color, and Frame rate are also part, with luminance probably the most important of all.
 
So, we've got movie studios toying with 3D at 48 or 60 fps, and on top of that we're supposed to adopt 4K or 8K. Where is the Internet bandwidth, storage space and hardware to play it going to come from? We'll probably see 4K show up in 5 years, and 8K maybe 10 years from now. Movie theaters will push this tech to get people to go to the movies. As for the home, well, I just don't see it. I guess the first 4K tvs could support 3D at 1080p only, otherwise the bandwidth required over HDMI is going to be pretty big.
 
Shifty said:
you just want pixels for pixels sake without understanding what that value represents.

That's not true for me.

No, Shifty is right, you don't understand, you keep fighting science with hand waving nonsense.

There is an upper limit to the angular resolution of the human eye. It is pointless to go above this resolution.

Cheers
 
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So, we've got movie studios toying with 3D at 48 or 60 fps, and on top of that we're supposed to adopt 4K or 8K.

I'd much rather have a doubling or tripling of temporal over spatial resolution.

Where is the Internet bandwidth, storage space and hardware to play it going to come from? We'll probably see 4K show up in 5 years, and 8K maybe 10 years from now. Movie theaters will push this tech to get people to go to the movies.

1080 is going to be with us for a while. The entire production chain only just completed a 6 to 7 year transition to 1080, before that we had SD for 60 (!!!!) years.

Movie theaters might push higher resolutions as this is the only parameter they still have an edge in. Contrast and screen luminance uniformity being two where they lag badly.

The next step is going to be higher fps and 3D, that's where the bandwidth bits are going to go, it is also where we will see the biggest visual impact.

Cheers
 
So, we've got movie studios toying with 3D at 48 or 60 fps, and on top of that we're supposed to adopt 4K or 8K. Where is the Internet bandwidth, storage space and hardware to play it going to come from? We'll probably see 4K show up in 5 years, and 8K maybe 10 years from now. Movie theaters will push this tech to get people to go to the movies. As for the home, well, I just don't see it. I guess the first 4K tvs could support 3D at 1080p only, otherwise the bandwidth required over HDMI is going to be pretty big.

Since Internet bandwidth isn't going to happen, it'll be down to physical media. The problem there being changing standards and forward compatibility.
 
So, we've got movie studios toying with 3D at 48 or 60 fps, and on top of that we're supposed to adopt 4K or 8K.

And not only this:

This week is NHK’s Public Open Day at its Research & Development centre in Tokyo (May 24-27) when the latest versions of U-HDTV will be demonstrated. This includes an 8K camera sensor chip which can capture at 120 frames/second (considered ideal in reducing flicker). NHK has already shown a 145” TV set (developed with Panasonic) that can receive 8K images

http://advanced-television.com/index.php/2012/05/21/ses-astra-actively-planning-for-ultra-hdtv/

No, Shifty is right, you don't understand, you keep fighting science with hand waving nonsense.

:LOL:

The is an upper limit to the angular resolution of the human eye.

I'm not saying there isn't. You claim that distance resolves any problems. Imagine you have to stand very close to a wall- imagine it is 3 meters wide and 2 meters high, and this wall is in your home and it is somehow supposed to be interactive. Would you be pleased if its resolution is 1920 x 1080 with ppi of 50, for example.

Basically what you are saying is- go as further as possible from the screen, you won't see how bad its quality is. Which is ridiculous. :)
 
Put your money where your mouth is and invest in Ses-Astra then. I'll predict a default in less than two years.

I'm not saying there isn't. You claim that distance resolves any problems. Imagine you have to stand very close to a wall- imagine it is 3 meters wide and 2 meters high, and this wall is in your home and it is somehow supposed to be interactive. Would you be pleased if its resolution is 1920 x 1080 with ppi of 50, for example.

You're claiming that we will have 3x2 meters screens and that we will be less than half a meter from it, all in 5 to 10 years ?

Sitting closer to a bigger screen gives you a larger field of view. This gives better immersion if you're on the center line, and absolutely sucks the more you move away from it. Ever sat leftmost in the front row of a small movie theatre ?

Basically what you are saying is- go as further as possible from the screen, you won't see how bad its quality is. Which is ridiculous. :)

Like I said, hand waving nonsense.

How many pixels do you need to reproduce a movie theater FOV of 30 degrees with one arc minute angular resolution ?

Cheers
 
You're claiming that we will have 3x2 meters screens and that we will be less than half a meter from it, all in 5 to 10 years ?

Yes, it might be an interactive wall and while you are standing only 50 cm from it, you will either watch something or read the news on the mirror part of it, while washing your teeth. For example.
Or the wall intelligently detects how close you are and adjusts the ppi in such a way that you don't see many ugly pixels but a beautiful picture. The possibilities are infinite, just use your imagination.

How many pixels do you need to reproduce a movie theater FOV of 30 degrees with one arc minute angular resolution ?

Are you sitting 100 meters from it, 30 degrees is too low? :???:
 
Software optimisations. With the new resolutions and standards, new codecs will be released.

Don't just think about games. Filming and editing a movie fully digitally is already a huge data management challenge. TV shows, commercials, TV channel identities etc. Everyone would have to adjust to 4K and they've just barely gotten over 1080p.
 
:LOL:
Actually it is exactly the opposite.
The projectors owners get the hard one, while those with tablets and laptops do enjoy higher resolutions, thus quality.

Yes, if 4K has anywhere to go, I think portable devices will probably be the best bet thanks to Apple's Volume and Retina Display.

But really, the problem is not technologies. It's whether you can deliver a unique experience with a 4K display. For professional editing, I think it's great because you can edit the entire 1080p video and use the remaining screen estate for your UI. What can the consumers do with 4K ? I don't mind a good 3D 1080p co-op (1080 x 2 x 2) session but I can't think of any.

Have you played any game on the Retina iPad yet ? Does it make a huge difference ?

Don't just think about games. Filming and editing a movie fully digitally is already a huge data management challenge. TV shows, commercials, TV channel identities etc. Everyone would have to adjust to 4K and they've just barely gotten over 1080p.

I _think_ the professionals are already editing the movies in 4K today. Perhaps 3D 4K too. But yes, 1080p is for retail use. So the pros are already heading there (slowly ?).

EDIT: I don't mind slicing the 4K res into smaller frames for supporting Holographic output.
 
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