Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2024]

[Remij]

Linux, even with Valve efforts, will never dethrone Windows.

It would if MS allowed things to devolve enough... but we can safely say that's not going to happen... so thus there's no reason to act like MS wont invest enough. If shader compilation worsens and doesn't get better... MS WILL be forced to deal with it.

Like I said.. there's no 1 single solution to the problem, but MS for their part would make the API better in the ways it has to, while adding functionality, and also providing framework to allow developers to more easily tackle this issue. Things that a good platform holder should rightfully do.

 

[techuse]

It would if MS allowed things to devolve enough... but we can safely say that's not going to happen... so thus there's no reason to act like MS wont invest enough. If shader compilation worsens and doesn't get better... MS WILL be forced to deal with it.

Like I said.. there's no 1 single solution to the problem, but MS for their part would make the API better in the ways it has to, while adding functionality, and also providing framework to allow developers to more easily tackle this issue. Things that a good platform holder should rightfully do.

As long as windows remains functional and doesn’t break the range of used programs by the average person/company, no amount of noise by the tiny spectrum of gamers who care will matter. All Microsoft has to do is continue to make sure things function.

 

[Bludd]

On PC it's a problem, on console it isn't. As I have said 10 times, to the end user it doesn't matter why it happens.

this is a technical forum so while what you say may be true, discussing how and why it happens on pc and not on console cant be dismissed by such nonchalance

 

[Cyan]

Linux, even with Valve efforts, will never dethrone Windows. They will keep their comparatively tiny Steam Deck audience at best.

well, I am not so sure. It's sad that it has to be Valve who tells Microsoft how to make a PC for gaming and make it easy and straightforward for gamers. We discussed this several times in different threads, but gaming is very important. Look at where is nVidia now, first company of the world. Look at what they say killed the Amiga, it was a game, Doom, which ran better on PC. Windows is the best OS for gaming, BY far. But if Valve makes it so easy for gamers, it could end up affecting a core element of MS, which is Windows.

 

[Remij]

As long as windows remains functional and doesn’t break the range of used programs by the average person/company, no amount of noise by the tiny spectrum of gamers who care will matter. All Microsoft has to do is continue to make sure things function.

So what exactly are you wanting to argue here? Because I hate to break it to you... but that tiny spectrum of gamers who care, have already gotten in MS' ear and they ARE in fact working on this problem. I've been told as much.

I mean, you're saying... MS will continue to make sure things work... and that's it. Uh, ok... so if things get worse... and don't continue to work... MS will put in the effort and resources required to make it work. Gotcha.

 

[Remij]

well, I am not so sure. It's sad that it has to be Valve who tells Microsoft how to make a PC for gaming and make it easy and straightforward for gamers. We discussed this several times in different threads, but gaming is very important. Look at where is nVidia now, first company of the world. Look at what they say killed the Amiga, it was a game, Doom, which ran better on PC. Windows is the best OS for gaming, BY far. But if Valve makes it so easy for gamers, it could end up affecting a core element of MS, which is Windows.

Valve is out there right now proving what is possible. Nobody is going to flock to Valve and SteamOS... while Windows is working and properly supported. But you're sadly mistaken if you don't think Valve has proven to people that there is now an alternative to Windows gaming... because they absolutely have. MS can't and wont let things go to shit... and not only that... they WILL indeed put resources into making it better. So I dunno why he's going on about it not being important to MS.. it absolutely is.

 

[techuse]

So what exactly are you wanting to argue here? Because I hate to break it to you... but that tiny spectrum of gamers who care, have already gotten in MS' ear and they ARE in fact working on this problem. I've been told as much.

I mean, you're saying... MS will continue to make sure things work... and that's it. Uh, ok... so if things get worse... and don't continue to work... MS will put in the effort and resources required to make it work. Gotcha.

That I don't think anything is going to change other than a continued reliance on faster hardware to brute force over these issues. Microsoft has been “working” on things for over a decade now. Nothing about the experience has improved since.

Things work right now, and there’s room for things to degrade but still be in a state that can absolutely be considered as working.

 

[Cyan]

That I don't think anything is going to change other than a continued reliance on faster hardware to brute force over these issues. Microsoft has been “working” on things for over a decade now. Nothing about the experience has improved since.

Things work right now, and theres room for things to degrade but still be in a state that can absolutely be considered as working.

during the Windows Vista days they had Games for Windows, but they advanced very little since then. GoG made a business out of publishing retro games, Steam became an unbeatable language, and in the process Microsoft lost a lot of money when they have the OS and their initial idea with the Xbox was to make a mix of a console or a PC. In fact you could play mp3 files -music- from the hard disk like on a PC, instead of the game's music, you had a hard drive, and the hardware was just a x86 PC.

 

[Remij]

That I don't think anything is going to change other than a continued reliance on faster hardware to brute force over these issues. Microsoft has been “working” on things for over a decade now. Nothing about the experience has improved since.

Obviously PCs will never be as flexible in architecture as purpose specific gaming devices can be from generation to generation. That's a weakness... or a strength depending on your point of view. I could easily argue that to a certain degree consoles have already fallen into a similar issue already just within the past 2 generations. Will they put the resources into their consoles to drastically change the entire architecture and do something "exotic" I doubt it. That's a huge risk/investment.. and why do that if hardware advances enough. You're going to get more of the same... but faster.

Anyway, I don't subscribe to this idea that PCs should have to be as efficient as consoles. It's impossible for them to be, even if the architecture was better suited to gaming specifically. That's due to the reason why they are called "Personal" Computers... the variety and personalization is what makes them special, and we pay for that with our money, and efficiency.

There's still lots that can be done with the current architecture setup. And anyway... consoles are only keeping pace in the way they are because they're releasing mid-gen upgrades now.

 

[techuse]

Obviously PCs will never be as flexible in architecture as purpose specific gaming devices can be from generation to generation. That's a weakness... or a strength depending on your point of view. I could easily argue that to a certain degree consoles have already fallen into a similar issue already just within the past 2 generations. Will they put the resources into their consoles to drastically change the entire architecture and do something "exotic" I doubt it. That's a huge risk/investment.. and why do that if hardware advances enough. You're going to get more of the same... but faster.

Anyway, I don't subscribe to this idea that PCs should have to be as efficient as consoles. It's impossible for them to be, even if the architecture was better suited to gaming specifically. That's due to the reason why they are called "Personal" Computers... the variety and personalization is what makes them special, and we pay for that with our money, and efficiency.

There's still lots that can be done with the current architecture setup. And anyway... consoles are only keeping pace in the way they are because they're releasing mid-gen upgrades now.

Consoles can never be matched, but things could certainly be a lot better than they are now. I just don’t think that improvement will happen. Rather, I suspect that going forward things will only get worse. As complexity of games increases, the lackluster PC development ecosystem will become more and more of a hindrance. I could see AI causing lots of headaches if it ever finds widespread use in games.

 

[Cyan]

Consoles can never be matched, but things could certainly be a lot better than they are now.

that's right.

I just don’t think that improvement will happen. Rather, I suspect that going forward things will only get worse. As complexity of games increases, the lackluster PC development ecosystem will become more and more of a hindrance. AI I could see causing lots of headaches if it ever finds widespread use in games.

MS is taking PC gaming seriously now. There is this rumour about OEMs and so on, they didn't deny a single thing, nor they denied the rumours of a handheld hybrid (or pure console but... I am not sure they are going to create a xbox handheld). Just create standards and guidelines for hardware manufacturers (some games have a setting called "Steam Deck"), they key is the software, the OS and easy of use of the whole thing, have some certification like Copilot+ PCs but for gaming... and they might have a chance.

 

[Remij]

Consoles can never be matched, but things could certainly be a lot better than they are now. I just don’t think that improvement will happen. Rather, I suspect that going forward things will only get worse. As complexity of games increases, the lackluster PC development ecosystem will become more and more of a hindrance. AI I could see causing lots of headaches if it ever finds widespread use in games.

I disagree. I suspect the market is going to be in a phase where it corrects itself, and in that time tools and APIs will continue to get better, PC will continue to become ever more popular and something that studios can't afford to not take seriously and so on.

Just yesterday Shawn Layden made a comment about what he thinks game studios should do to stay efficient and prosper.. and one of the points was reducing the length of games. He said only 32% of gamers actually finish games.. which means that 68% of gamers that buy games aren't seeing most of them. Cutting out bloat can reduce complexity. He also brought up to stop chasing photorealism. The best selling games are often games which aren't pushing the visual envelope at all.. and specifically cites newer generations of gamers who care less and less about them. He also brought up that the fundamental way they develop games hasn't really evolved in decades.. and that tools and pipeline processes are still quite dated. This isn't a console or PC specific problem... its a systemic gaming dev studio culture problem.

Point is... a lot of these issues which pop up in gaming, such as optimization... aren't related to hardware.. or even development tools. Their often related to internal ideologies, studio politics, and management (QA control is a big issue and it's obvious that there are fundamental issues with QA processes within certain studios), which affect the abilities of the developers to do their jobs to the best of their abilities. I personally think those are the issues which need correcting more than any big sweeping architectural or technical improvements.

I think we seriously need one generation off from any massive hardware improvements, and instead focus on development/studio culture and management as well as tools and process improvements instead.

 

[Charlietus]

this is a technical forum so while what you say may be true, discussing how and why it happens on pc and not on console cant be dismissed by such nonchalance

In the context of where the discussion went, It was becoming redundant to keep bringing up the technical reason, while the point was the other way.

 

[XboxKING]

If Nvidia took a CPU, even if it was legacy garbage tech like X86, and move it to the GPU board... then performance would increase a lot.
Getting rid of Windows would also give a big performance boost, especially in IO.

What does that tell you about the current PC ‘state’? It is nothing more then brute force to try and work around the decades old self imposed bottlenecks

 

[Globalisateur]

Valve is out there right now proving what is possible. Nobody is going to flock to Valve and SteamOS... while Windows is working and properly supported. But you're sadly mistaken if you don't think Valve has proven to people that there is now an alternative to Windows gaming... because they absolutely have. MS can't and wont let things go to shit... and not only that... they WILL indeed put resources into making it better. So I dunno why he's going on about it not being important to MS.. it absolutely is.

Oh yes absolutely. If MS think people will never depart from gaming on PC with Windows OS they are highly mistaken. Platforms are getting obsolete and are being replaced by better solutions constantly. And usually it's easier starting from scratch. I could see a future where Steam OS would become somehow the best way of playing games, even on PC.

 

[Cyan]

Oh yes absolutely. If MS think people will never depart from gaming on PC with Windows OS they are highly mistaken. Platforms are getting obsolete and are being replaced by better solutions constantly. And usually it's easier starting from scratch. I could see a future where Steam OS would become somehow the best way of playing games, even on PC.

that's the point. Taller towers have fallen, if you know what I mean. I love the PC and PC gaming I wouldn't change it for anything else. The freedom to be creative, having a device where you can do about everything instead of one thing, and the ability to play thousands of games (literally, there are games about everything) is a nice thing to have, but I'd really like to have the option to plug & play games -which many of them are these days, but not all- like on a console, not for me, but for people of my family, friends, etc, who play with me, so I don't have to be vigilant of Windows shenanigans getting in the way.

The combination of the two, easy of use and freedom, would be ideal. When I was just have had a PC in the early 2000s I went to a Game store and asked about consoles, after some talk the girl at the store told me that the OG Xbox was similar to a PC and that's why I purchased it, it was my first console and I spent 10 years as a console gamer, so I experienced both things.

 

[see colon]

If shader compilation worsens and doesn't get better... MS WILL be forced to deal with it.

I don't really follow this. There exist games that don't have shader compilation issues. It's clearly an issue, but also clearly an issue than can and has been solved by game developers who take the time to compile shaders at launch instead of relying on JIT compilation. In my opinion, Microsoft has larger issues to solve that developers can't work around, like optimizing IO, that would benefit Windows performance overall, vs something that mostly only affects gaming.

 

[pjbliverpool]

If Nvidia took a CPU, even if it was legacy garbage tech like X86,

They are still literally the fastest consumer level CPU's available on the market.

and move it to the GPU board... then performance would increase a lot.

So essentially an APU. Why don't you ask AMD who actually does exactly that how that's going in terms of "increasing performance a lot" over the highest end discrete systems?

APU's have big disadvantages over discrete systems from a performance perspective. Most importantly, power and heat budget is lowered for both components, and memory has to be shared meaning both contention, and a trade off between raw throughput and latency (the GPU prefers one, the CPU prefers the other).

It also essentially wipes out the modular nature of the desktop PC which is kinda the whole point of it.

Getting rid of Windows would also give a big performance boost, especially in IO.

A PC without an OS. Hmmm.. you are aware that the Xbox also runs on Windows right? And would you care to explain your reasoning around the IO comments? How, exactly, would getting rid of Windows speed up IO? What are you replacing it with, and how would it work?

 

[Remij]

I don't really follow this. There exist games that don't have shader compilation issues. It's clearly an issue, but also clearly an issue than can and has been solved by game developers who take the time to compile shaders at launch instead of relying on JIT compilation. In my opinion, Microsoft has larger issues to solve that developers can't work around, like optimizing IO, that would benefit Windows performance overall, vs something that mostly only affects gaming.

You don't follow how that if something gets worse and not better they'll have to deal with the thing getting worse?

There exists games and programs which don't have IO issues too... What you just proposed is not mutually exclusive... they CAN do both.

 

[Seanspeed]

I could see a future where Steam OS would become somehow the best way of playing games, even on PC.

I quite doubt it. Windows will always be more popular cuz it's where everything is. And because of that, Valve/Steam only have so many people who will be willing to use or load an entirely different OS just for gaming, and the likely minimal benefits you could get from it in the best case situation.

Platforms are getting obsolete and are being replaced by better solutions constantly.

Not Windows, though. It's basically cemented in the same way Android is for smartphones.

I also think some aren't getting that compilation stutter on Steam Deck can be addressed not because of SteamOS specifically, but because it's a fixed device. With normal PC's, you'll have the same problem as on Windows.

Now I do think there's potentially room for Valve to create their own fixed spec 'console' using SteamOS that could offer some benefits, but there'll be plenty of disadvantages to such a thing compared to a more traditional open PC using Windows. And I definitely do not ever think this would dethrone Windows for most PC gamers.