Next Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

[Scott_Arm]

I am a bit surprised about that RNDA2 claim to be honest (still waiting for the receipts on that one). The rest is exactly what most of us were expecting like patented custom VRS API and Direct X Ray tracing.

Well, most of us expected hardware-accelerated ray-tracing. Some of us thought it was a ruse.

 

[iroboto]

I guess if Sony don't make a quick counter or statement on power in the next few days it would be safe to say they have the weaker system. Things should pick up the pace now, interesting times ahead.

They still need to make sure all their pricing is lined up before they make any official announcements on spec. Once you announce, there is no turning back.
They'll announce when they are ready.

 

[Globalisateur]

I don't see how clearer it could be with Microsoft themselves saying RDNA 2.

Well I am surprised because one known MS insider himself claimed it wasn't using RDNA2, that's all. Like I got the DirectX Ray tracing info from another MS insider last year (the insider on ree that posted this eventually confirmed the word hidden before Ray Tracing was DirectX):

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Do you seriously consider it even a remote chance that Sony would develop their own RT acceleration units or buy them from someone else to be integrated into semi-custom AMD APU, when AMD is offering RT acceleration too?

Lisa Su's statements about RT on next-gen consoles certainly made it seem like at least one of the consoles is using a RT solution that is not from AMD:

I’ve said in the past that ray tracing is important, and I still believe that, but if you look at where we are today it is still very early. We are investing heavily in ray tracing and investing heavily in the ecosystem around it – both of our console partners have also said that they are using ray tracing.

She didn't say "they're using our raytracing", she said "they said they're using raytracing".
I know there's some resistance in this forum to acknowledging that Sony could ever use anything custom, but it makes much more sense if Microsoft is the one adopting the raytracing IP that is going into other windows PCs, at least for making the ports easier to develop.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I wonder which teir of hardware support the Series X will have for VRS? Or if their solution is patented, maybe it'll be one of these tiers plus some customizations for Xbox.

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/variable-rate-shading-a-scalpel-in-a-world-of-sledgehammers/

Tier 1

By allowing developers to specify the per-draw shading rate, different draw calls can have different shading rates.

For example, a developer could draw a game’s large environment assets, assets in a faraway plane, or assets obscured behind semitransparency at a lower shading rate, while keeping a high shading rate for more detailed assets in a scene.

Tier 2

As mentioned above, Tier 2 hardware offer the same functionality and more, by also allowing developers to specify the shading rate within a draw, with a screenspace image or per-primitive. Let’s explain:

 

[Kaotik]

Lisa Su's statements about RT on next-gen consoles certainly made it seem like at least one of the consoles is using a RT solution that is not from AMD:
She didn't say "they're using our raytracing", she said "they said they're using raytracing".
I know there's some resistance in this forum to acknowledging that Sony could ever use anything custom, but it makes much more sense if Microsoft is the one adopting the raytracing IP that is going into other windows PCs, at least for making the ports easier to develop.

She didnt' say "they're using our raytracing" because AMD is really cautious not to say anything about their customers chips which the customer hasn't said before themselves, and neither at that point had confirmed anything beyond the fact that they support (hardware) raytracing.

 

[iroboto]

I wonder which teir of hardware support the Series X will have for VRS? Or if their solution is patented, maybe it'll be one of these tiers plus some customizations for Xbox.

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/variable-rate-shading-a-scalpel-in-a-world-of-sledgehammers/

I tried my best a while back to make this determination:
https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2091763/

I think I concluded (from some weak research) that MS was Tier 2 (and some). AMD was Tier 1.
Nvidia was Tier 2

 

[Proelite]

I wonder which teir of hardware support the Series X will have for VRS? Or if their solution is patented, maybe it'll be one of these tiers plus some customizations for Xbox.

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/variable-rate-shading-a-scalpel-in-a-world-of-sledgehammers/

Tier 2.

 

[turkey]

Do you seriously consider it even a remote chance that Sony would develop their own RT acceleration units or buy them from someone else to be integrated into semi-custom AMD APU, when AMD is offering RT acceleration too?

And yet it seems for the Ssd with next gen pc parts offering blistering performance way above the 5200rpm laptop drive in the Ps4 they are rolling their own for PS5.

Sony uses RT in its movie arm so they probably have a fair amount of domain knowledge and possible reuse.

That's probably no the best counter argument given its a discreet part, but Microsoft are using their own VRS when Rdna2 has this from AMD which also sounds non trivial to bolt on or in.

 

[Kaotik]

And yet it seems for the Ssd with next gen pc parts offering blistering performance way above the 5200rpm laptop drive in the Ps4 they are rolling their own for PS5.

Sony uses RT in its movie arm so they probably have a fair amount of domain knowledge and possible reuse.

That's probably no the best counter argument given its a discreet part, but Microsoft are using their own VRS when Rdna2 has this from AMD which also sounds non trivial to bolt on or in.

We need to first see what kind of VRS PC RDNA2 parts will carry before making such conclusions though

edit: And we don't really know how custom their SSD is yet, either. We do know that it's PCIe 4.0 SSD, but beyond that it's anyones guess. It could even be bog standard PCIe 4.0 SSD or it could be standard PCIe 4.0 SSD but connected to HBCC.

 

[Rootax]

Nice hardware. Any word about bandwidth ? To bad they will force backward compatibility for a while : / Sure you can scale some things, but building a game without old gen in mind is better.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

She didnt' say "they're using our raytracing" because AMD is really cautious not to say anything about their customers chips which the customer hasn't said before themselves, and neither at that point had confirmed anything beyond the fact that they support (hardware) raytracing.

That's one option. Another option is they're using different RT approaches, one of them being AMD's candidate for DXR on their PC GPUs and the other being something different (perhaps less flexible & faster, perhaps the opposite).
As mentioned before, Microsoft seems to be using their own approach to VRS. But Sony can't use their own approach to RT because..?

Any word about bandwidth ?

No word on bandwidth nor RAM amount for now.

 

[Jay]

So what is that in old 1X GCN flops about 16TF?
Not including if there is more efficiencies beyond RDNA 1.

What's the difference between zen 2 and 3, is it mostly around the chiplet design?

 

[Cyan]

12TF confirmed for XSX.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1231943054904324096

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1231944065052106752

the most interesting part is that the leaks are confirmed. 120 fps are glorious, so I am happy they went with it. Also VRS is good to scratch some extra frames.

 

[Jay]

Now that I've read the blog post, I like the sound of the save states for multiple games for fast resume.

Be nice when we get details just what their VRS actually entails, is it just their own implementation of teir 2, or bit more, RDNA 2 with minor change?

Wonder now that MS has confirmed 2 that means amd is ready to talk about RDNA 2? Do they have any shows or anything lined up?

 

[Deleted member 13524]

120FPS is just part of the HDMI 2.1 spec.
Both the PS4 Pro and the XBoneX can output 4K60, but very rarely do you ever see that native render resolution at that framerate in either console.

 

[PSman1700]

I don't think so.

Maybe their on RDNA1.5 then.

I know there's some resistance in this forum to acknowledging that Sony could ever use anything custom

Maybe no one wants Sony to do so again, as it almost never turned in better performance, only wacky and hard to program for hardware.

 

[anexanhume]

So this non technically oriented person extrapolated to 12TF all by their lonesome, or their source expressed it in equivalent terms and completely neglected to provide the background explanation for their numbers? Either way, you’re still taking a leap of faith someone got something wrong here when the potential to be more clear was abundantly available. This is no longer an issue of dev kits where a Vega part at 12TF could be misinterpreted as representative of the final GPU. This is literally the end product, and you’re saying they’re misrepresenting it when that’s never happened before.

This talk of architecture efficiency and equivalent FLOPs is an argument that has been constructed on forums and chat rooms completely on the internet, and removed from the industry. We’ve grafted those terms into industry discussions because it’s become so pervasive and normalized that it feels consistent. We’ve added complexity and nuance to the discussion, and now we’re operating on a reverse Occam’s razor principle.

I think some people are rationalizing it this way because 12TF just doesn’t seem believable to them. However, we have no idea what Big Navi looks like yet, and Nvidia hasn’t even revealed their 7nm arch yet. We may well get 20TF flagship GPUs in 2020 and the comparative basis of that mindset should melt away. There’s so many assumed rules and boundaries people are just taking at face value that consoles can’t violate, and yet MS has plainly just revealed a SFF PC looking console that is markedly different than any other ‘console’ product the market has seen to date.

Look at the size of that thing. It’s clearly cooling a level of consumption heretofore unseen in consoles.

Thinking about this post today.

 

[Kaotik]

What's the difference between zen 2 and 3, is it mostly around the chiplet design?

Zen 3 is a new architecture, Zen 2 was evolution of Zen (with some parts left on cutting board included this time)
How different it will be remains to be seen, but currently we know that at least the old CCX gets thrown out, as with Zen 3 8 cores will share same 32MB or bigger L3.

 

[PSman1700]

Zen 3 is a new architecture

I must admit that AMD really is really doing well, zen3 will be even better then zen2, and with a possible 80CU HBM2E monster coming in at 16 to 20TF they got a much better position then a decade ago.