News & Rumors: Xbox One (codename Durango)

[Quaz51]

16 cores (64 threads) 2.3ghz IBM Power already exist in 45nm
https://www.power.org/events/2010_ISSCC/Wire_Speed_Presentation_5.5_-_Final4.pdf

it's small in-order cores (PPE like) with eDRAM for compact L2 cache (4 cores block with L1/L2 cache = 42mm² in 45nm)
a 16 cores custom version with new process (32nm or less) for a console is clearly possible, no more difficult than 2005 Xenon (maybe less)

 

[Acert93]

16 cores (64 threads) 2.3ghz IBM Power already exist in 45nm
https://www.power.org/events/2010_IS...5_-_Final4.pdf

it's small in-order cores (PPE like) with eDRAM for compact L2 cache (4 cores block with L1/L2 cache = 42mm² in 45nm)
a 16 cores custom version with new process (32nm or less) for a console is clearly possible, no more difficult than 2005 Xenon (maybe less)

Unbroken link.

That is a variant of the IBM A2 I had mentioned in the other thread. It is quite large on 45nm at 428mm^2. Power is solid (65W at 2.0GHz) but it looks like to scale up higher frequencies it is going to really get hot. If it is in order I cannot imagine it being ideal to have it at such lower frequencies. It is designed for thoroughput and has a fairly small 16KB L1 Cache and 16KB Data Cache (Xenon was 32KB instruction and 32KB data) L2 is eDRAM (2MB per 4Cores, 8MB total) so I wonder what the performance penalty would be. It also has all kinds of accelerators (compression, encryption, XML, etc) which would need to be ripped out which goes against the grain of what ERP was noting how adding, and not subtracting, is much easier.

Even at <=32nm this would be a CPU the size of the PS3 Cell at 90nm and probably use as much or more power. It has a lot of features totally useless for a console and it seems more situated for network and multi-chip environments than something game developers would need.

 

[Rangers]

The issue with inflation is that salaries for most people (the working class) has decoupled a long ago ;(

Maybe somewhat, but when I started working minimum wage was 3.35. It's now 7.25. So about a halving of the dollars worth over ~20 years, inline with other areas.

SNES was 249 back then around it's launch, it was considered expensive, but viable. Today, a 499 console would probably also be considered equally expensive, but viable.

 

[N2O]

The PasteBin rumor was posted April 2nd. Computers and Videogames reported the Xbox World Magazine rumor April 10th. I don't know the publication dates so either the PasteBin poster could have got the info from a copy in production but not released ... or if the XWM picked up that rumor right at press time. As XWM doesn't say where their sources come from (read the CVG thing closely, it mentions the secret meetings and dev kits going out but never mentions a developer disclosing data to them) it could be is doing what other sites have been shown to be doing: running with any rumor they find.

EDIT: The other option is that both rumors are related to the recent conferences and dev kit dispersion and are both based on some real facts. I consider that, sadly, unlikely.

pastebin is 6 cores
16 cores news is from April 6
http://sillegamer.com/2012/04/06/xbox-720-devkit-specs-detailed-includes-16-core-processor/

 

[Quaz51]

That is a variant of the IBM A2 I had mentioned in the other thread. It is quite large on 45nm at 428mm^2.

but lot of useless hardware accelerator and I/O. CPU Cores+L2 is 75% of the xenon die and only 40% on this chip
4x AT node (16x A2 core + L2) is only 170mm² in 45nm for 16 cores. with 75% ratio = 225mm² in 45nm, probably 130-150mm² in 32nm, smaller CPU than X360 cpu (170mm²)

Power is solid (65W at 2.0GHz) but it looks like to scale up higher frequencies it is going to really get hot.

but lot of useless hardware accelerator and I/O . i think a custom 16 cores version under 50 watts is possible at 2ghz 45nm. at 32nm or less you probably can make a good custom version with good frequence under 80 watts (first X360 cpu was about 80watts)

It is designed for thoroughput and has a fairly small 16KB L1 Cache and 16KB Data Cache (Xenon was 32KB instruction and 32KB data) L2 is eDRAM (2MB per 4Cores, 8MB total) so I wonder what the performance penalty would be

but 4 thread vs 2 thread for compensate latency

 

[Acert93]

but lot of useless hardware accelerator and I/O. CPU Cores+L2 is 75% of the xenon die and only 40% on this chip
4x AT node (16x A2 core + L2) is only 170mm² in 45nm for 16 cores. with 75% ratio = 225mm² in 45nm, probably 130-150mm² in 32nm, smaller CPU than X360 cpu (170mm²)


but lot of useless hardware accelerator and I/O . i think a custom 16 cores version under 50 watts is possible at 2ghz 45nm. at 32nm or less you probably can make a good custom version with good frequence under 80 watts (first X360 cpu was about 80watts)


but 4 thread vs 2 thread for compensate latency

Quaz, see what ERP said about the removing of parts from CPUs:

The Power 7 is heavily optimized for the workloads it's used for, although you could just start lopping cache off it, the current design is designed to function with a lot of cache, starting to lop cache off may have unforeseen performance consequences. Same would be true for scaling any part of the chip down without addressing the consequences. I think it's easier to add than to subtract in this case.

Also, one thing about just looking at the core+L2: You still need to account for IO the chip will need. We were recently cutting down a Bulldozer and while the Cores are smaller, as are the caches, a HUGE part of the chip is for IO. Simply adding up the core+L2 doesn't say how small the entire chip will be, even when cutting out useless IO and features that the POWER7 and A2 have.

 

[liolio]

It's not removing from the CPU it's removing DSP and such.
Actually in the power a2 the L2 is not even in the core design. It looks more like part of the "uncore".
In Power EN (speed wire processor) it's implemented in quads tied to their local share of the L2 (2MB).
In Bluegene the core are all around the die and in the middle there is 32MB of L2 and it's unclear how the thing is organized.
In Blue gene there are not DSP.

 

[AzBat]

This infographic reminds me why I'm ready for the next Xbox...

Get here already will ya?

BTW, intresesting enough the 360 lifespan will most likely be twice as long as the original Xbox lifespan, provided it ships next year.

Tommy McClain

 

[pjbliverpool]

haha that's quite cool. But think of it this way, if the 360 was an original xbox, then it's replacement would probably be sporting something like a 4770.

 

[french toast]

16 cores (64 threads) 2.3ghz IBM Power already exist in 45nm
https://www.power.org/events/2010_ISSCC/Wire_Speed_Presentation_5.5_-_Final4.pdf

it's small in-order cores (PPE like) with eDRAM for compact L2 cache (4 cores block with L1/L2 cache = 42mm² in 45nm)
a 16 cores custom version with new process (32nm or less) for a console is clearly possible, no more difficult than 2005 Xenon (maybe less)

There was a quote from somebody from the tech industry around october time, might have been AMD..and they said that next gen would enable multiple AI's, like imagining GTA with everyone on the street with there own seperate AI and personality...that would certainly fit a 16 core CPU scenario..

What is the chances of adding a large single OoO core into that 16 core cluster? like the cell, just with SPE's swapped for PPE's?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Isn't that the sort of AI that was promised for this gen?

 

[almighty]

Intel Sandy Bridge CPU, a decent GPU with 4Gb RAM is easy done and super fast.

 

[Acert93]

Intel Sandy Bridge CPU, a decent GPU with 4Gb RAM is easy done and super fast.

And large. And expensive. And not really available on the cost reduction road maps console makers need.

 

[french toast]

Isn't that the sort of AI that was promised for this gen?

True, its the emotion engine all over again

 

[almighty]

And large. And expensive. And not really available on the cost reduction road maps console makers need.

I've just updated the partners PC for £100

Sandy Bridge Dual Core
4Gb RAM
m-ATX Motherboard..

Not expensive at all tbh..

 

[AlphaWolf]

Try including the entire cost for the system.

 

[almighty]

Try including the entire cost for the system.

Give me a budget?

 

[AlphaWolf]

You want to compete with consoles, it needs to have a console budget, include a controller and OS (preferably one that runs some modern games).

 

[almighty]

You want to compete with consoles, it needs to have a console budget, include a controller and OS (preferably one that runs some modern games).

Going off a typical console launch price..

£500 with an OS and controls...

That would piss over a console, sticking that lot in a closed box would be tricky given heat and power requirements but chuck in bulk orders and other big savings and it would work out quite a bit cheaper to build then the price above.

The sheer savings in PCB components alone is quite large when moving to a single PCB in a console.

 

[AlphaWolf]

No keyboard or mouse or controller or OS and its not exactly a performer nor will it fit under my TV. Alienware's console like box is pretty comparable to what you have there (performance wise), it costs more but at least it comes with an OS and I/O and comes assembled with OS installed.