Killzone 3 and MLAA

[flynn]

Naughty Dog had similar recommendations (Use smart design and basic hardware characteristics, don't code optimize using assembly because it's hard to maintain). It seems that they went against their advices since one of the interviews mentioned that they used SPU assembly in Uncharted 2. Then again, they also said they had some development "close calls" because they relied too much on paper design instead of trying it out for real, until it's a little too late.

That would be Pal Engstad. If you watch the "Mastering the Cell processor" video he mentions they had more time to attack the hardware during U2's development, so for me it makes a lot of sense that, given the extra time, they wanted to optimize and re-write code in assembly.

It does not contradict the "no premature optimization" rule at all.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

What's better, "up to 16xAA" in some cases and no AA at all in others; or 4xMSAA in all cases?

Rhetorical question, don't answer!

 

[N_B]

What game has managed 4xMSAA in "all others"? Perfectly applied MSAA is a very rare thing nowadays.

Seems better to have up to 16xAA and some sub pixel issues rather than up to 4XAA and post process/lighting issues.

 

[Kasersky]

What game has managed 4xMSAA in "all cases"? Perfectly applied MSAA is a very rare thing nowadays.

Seems better to have up to 16xAA and some sub pixel issues rather than up to 4XAA and post process/lighting issues.

blur x360

 

[dah145]

What game has managed 4xMSAA in "all cases"? Perfectly applied MSAA is a very rare thing nowadays.

Seems better to have up to 16xAA and some sub pixel issues rather than up to 4XAA and post process/lighting issues.

I agree with you completely, there are more pros than cons with MLAA.
Now that the AA issue is corrected I would like to see GG implementing SSAO and maybe add some God rays tech, as in GOW3, then it would be very close to perfection considering the limitations of this consoles generation.

 

[N_B]

blur x360

Untrue - see the bridge edges:

http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/1/1/0/8/9/4/3/Blur360_001.jpg.jpg

 

[joker454]

It does not contradict the "no premature optimization" rule at all.

Yup, I think his original point was for people to not get bogged down with optimization details on the first pass, it really wasn't necessary. Just moving any code to spu was a win because even appallingly written code would run fast on spu. So his point was don't sweat it at first, just change your data structures and let the spu compiler do it's thing, it'll be plenty fast. Then get more down and dirty when you have time on future projects.

What game has managed 4xMSAA in "all others"? Perfectly applied MSAA is a very rare thing nowadays.

Fallout 3, Grid, Alan Wake, etc, I believe all have 4xmsaa full time. Lots of other x360 games use it in some form, it's not really that rare.

 

[Gitaroo]

I agree with you completely, there are more pros than cons with MLAA.
Now that the AA issue is corrected I would like to see GG implementing SSAO and maybe add some God rays tech, as in GOW3, then it would be very close to perfection considering the limitations of this consoles generation.

SSAO seems to be in the recent screen shots

http://assets.vg247.com/current//2010/05/ScreenShot_2009_03_21_1724.jpg

I hoping someone can check the new Socom 4 trailer, cuz it also looks super clean but jaggy on the thin geometry. If that game also use MLAA, that should say most 1st party has already adopted it.

 

[Billy Idol]

Their is a lengthy video interview (I think it is in dutch or something like this with translation) where GG showed a lot of their tech!
They also claimed that they are typically using 2 SPU during gameplay, sparing the rest for situations which are getting chaotic...if I remember correctly they stated that they used all SPUs during online MP.

So this does not sound to me that they are maxing SPU time in KZ2!

EDIT: found the cool video!
http://www.gamekings.tv/videos/minidocu-the-company-behind-killzone-2-full-version-subbed/

I recomend it to all interested in KZ2 tech...graphics tech start at about 15 minutes, performance stuff starts at about 18 minutes and the SPU utilization talk starts at about 18:40 (typically they use 2, when online "full force" they use all 6)

 

[nightshade]

Fallout 3, Grid, Alan Wake, etc, I believe all have 4xmsaa full time. Lots of other x360 games use it in some form, it's not really that rare.

I'm think Alan Wake has some problem with MSAA when transparencies come in, cause IIRC I noticed a lot of edges which were covered by fog/mist to be more jagged than other areas which were not covered in fog & were noticeably cleaner.

 

[N_B]

Fallout 3, Grid, Alan Wake, etc, I believe all have 4xmsaa full time. Lots of other x360 games use it in some form, it's not really that rare.

Perhaps Grid and Alan Wake have it full time but Fallout 3 doesn't as seen in this image (the light at the top):

http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/2/8/5/4/3/2/360_008.jpg.jpg

At any rate Alan Wake could have benefited from MLAA or the equivalent of more MSAA - aliasing is quite significant.

But like I said nowadays perfect MSAA in a world where most games have "unconventional" lighting is quite rare.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Fallout 3, Grid, Alan Wake, etc, I believe all have 4xmsaa full time. Lots of other x360 games use it in some form, it's not really that rare.

Out of what, a hundred games? And MSAA is as prone to breaking as MLAA in cases, particular HDR where edges aren't resolved to LDR before lerping. And whatever options XB360 has, PS3 hasn't the memory or bandwidth to support 4xMSAA in most titles. MLAA is a processing cost, not a bandwidth or memory one. 4xMSAA on the majority of PS3 titles isn't going to happen, but MLAA on the majority of titles could, and will be a marked improvement over the common zero AA PS3 gamers are used to.

 

[Billy Idol]

Regarding MLAA...could it be that you typically use it twice?

In a first step you do the domain decomposition "horizontal", i.e. split the number of lines as described in the paper. You could use this to do MLAA but I have the feeling that you would loose mainly vertically oriented edges...

So in a second step you could do the domain decomposition "vertical", i.e. split the pic with a certain fixed number of "columns". Then you mainly detect "vertical" edges and MLAA them.

At the end, you have to find a smart blending of those two MLAA images of course...which probably is not too difficult.

 

[Neb]

specular map or shader aliasing probably? If thats the case even 8XMSAA wont help. Personally, I play RE5 on PC with 8XCSAA in 1360X768, still doesnt look as clean as GOW3.

But the conditions you play under are not same. Different game, different detail noise, texture bias, AF in use?, amount of transparencies, no DOF that smooths out image, brighter intenser skybox lighting, etc. For example F3 with 4xMSAA/TSAA looks atleast as clean as the shots and in motion still as clean and it got high-res texture mods with lots of finegrain detail. Btw isn't 8xCSAA euqal to 4-8XMSAA depeding on rendering in game?

 

[London Geezer]

I don't understand why people are trying to compare MLAA with 4xMSAA.
Let's get this one straight: 4xMSAA on PS3, and on a game like KZ3 especially, is never going to happen. At best it's 2xMSAA or QAA. And MLAA (the way it's done in GOW3, as it's the most glaring example and the one that's being shared around within Sony's first party dev teams) definitely looks much, much better than 2xMSAA, QAA and of course 0xAA.

 

[(((interference)))]

So how exactly does MLAA work? Is it like an advanced edge detect + blur filter?

Is it viable on the 360? For instance can 360 titles like Halo Reach or BFBC2 which do not have MSAA use it?

 

[Billy Idol]

So how exactly does MLAA work? Is it like an advanced edge detect + blur filter?

Is it viable on the 360? For instance can 360 titles like Halo Reach or BFBC2 which do not have MSAA use it?

I recommend you this thread:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=55634

All your questions are discussed there...

 

[Prophecy2k]

http://twitter.com/digital_foundry/statuses/16069843537

DigitalFoundry usual knows what they're talking about. But I don't understand it. How can an SPU intensive engine like the Killzone (2) engine be doing MLAA? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it should take 20ms to execute the technique on a single SPU. That's a little too long for a single SPU, so my guess is that they'll run it in parralel with 4/5 SPU's reducing it to 4/5 ms. But how does that fit with all the other post processing beeing done by the SPU's in Killzone?

My friend you haven't played GOWIII... that game's IQ alone would have you sold on the idea of some kind of MLAA implimentation in more games (both PS3 & XB360). I played that game through multiple times and even tryning to look as carefully as possible, i didn't spot one jaggy.

I played RE5, only for a short time on 360 and i still don't think it's image quality is even cmparable to GOW3's... no game i've played thus far in my lifetime has a comparable to it IMHO (may sound hyperbolic but i assure you it's my honest opinion).

Plus you fail to realise that the latencies quoted are based on SSM's implimentation in their specific engine, and with their specific implimentation. Other devs can impliment MLAA (or a form similar, e.g. The Saboteur) and will have differing results.

As far as i'm concerned, anything that can produce IQ like GOWIII's and also take a little more work off the RSX is a win win in my book ;-)

 

[London Geezer]

My friend you haven't played GOWIII... that game's IQ alone would have you sold on the idea of some kind of MLAA implimentation in more games (both PS3 & XB360). I played that game through multiple times and even tryning to look as carefully as possible, i didn't spot one jaggy.

Well, GOW3 does have the most amazing IQ on PS3, however there are still a few stray jaggies here and there :smile:

 

[L. Scofield]

SSAO seems to be in the recent screen shots

http://assets.vg247.com/current//2010/05/ScreenShot_2009_03_21_1724.jpg

I see no SSAO in there