Welcome, Unregistered.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Reply
Old 15-Nov-2009, 12:59   #1
mitran
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 30
Icon Question Alternative AA methods and their comparison with traditional MSAA*

Mod: This thread appeared in the Console Tech forum and has centered on MLAA on the Cell processor. Although not limited to consoles, as that was the area of development it remained there. The latest development of an effective MLAA technique on GPU makes this a more open technology, so I've (finally!) moved the thread to the 3D Tech and Algorithms forum.

over @ http://blog.us.playstation.com:80/20...comment-295128
you can read that they do FSAA on the SPU's. I ts the first time i have ever seen any dev use the SPU's in order to do FSAA. But is not FSAA something better let the GPU do?

"Tom French replied on November 13, 2009 at 6:17 pm1. 720p is our native res. We use the SPUs on the PS3 to do a full screen FSAA filter."

Sory if i am posting in the wrong forum. Perhaps they have found a fast way to do FSAA on SPU's if so do you think more dev's will try to do the same? Do it realy free up more " time" on the GPU?
mitran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-Nov-2009, 13:21   #2
MDolenc
Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Slovenia
Posts: 421
Default

They are probably doing MSAA resolve on SPUs. This doesn't save any time on the GPU, since RSX has dedicated hardware for this (which in this case stays idle). However such approach is programable and thay can resolve this in what ever way they want (edge detect,...). Similar to what ATI is doing on their Radeon line.
MDolenc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-Nov-2009, 13:27   #3
psorcerer
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 401
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDolenc View Post
This doesn't save any time on the GPU, since RSX has dedicated hardware for this (which in this case stays idle).
GDDR bandwidth?
psorcerer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-Nov-2009, 15:42   #4
MDolenc
Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Slovenia
Posts: 421
Default

No not really. You still have to copy the buffer from GDDR to system memory and resolved buffer back to GDDR.
MDolenc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-Nov-2009, 17:11   #5
Grall
Invisible Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: La-la land
Posts: 6,616
Default

PS3 hardware can't read video buffer from XDR memory?
Grall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-Nov-2009, 17:14   #6
Crossbar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,821
Default

Thanks for the heads up. Interesting this definitely requires the full render buffer to be in the XDR memory. This was discussed in the technolgy thread before, GG only copied a quarter res buffer to XDR to do the post processing on the SPU (KZ2), but now we have an example of a full res buffer in XDR so we know it is a viable method.

Maybe FSAA is done in the same pass as the post-processing on the SPU? That would save memory bandwidth.
Crossbar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-Nov-2009, 17:35   #7
assen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Skirts of Vitosha
Posts: 1,377
Default

"We're using SPUs to do a full-screen antialiasing filter" sounds more plausible, where "antialiasing filter" means something like "edge detect + blur".

Tom French is not exactly a hardcore rendering programmer, judging from his MobyGames page.
__________________
Twitter
assen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-Nov-2009, 17:36   #8
Shifty Geezer
uber-Troll!
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Under my bridge
Posts: 29,840
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossbar
Maybe FSAA is done in the same pass as the post-processing on the SPU? That would save memory bandwidth.
That would be a smart solution. SPU's are ideally suited to complex image processing of small tiles. The more operations you can do in a single read, the better, saving BW.
__________________
Shifty Geezer
...

Tolerance for internet moronism is exhausted. Anyone talking about people's attitudes in the Console fora, rather than games and technology, will feel my wrath. Read the FAQ to remind yourself how to behave and avoid unsightly incidents.
Shifty Geezer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-Nov-2009, 20:04   #9
swaaye
Entirely Suboptimal
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: WI, USA
Posts: 7,282
Default

PS3 is lucky that it has a CPU that can cover up some of its GPU's inadequacies. Workarounds-R-Us....
swaaye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-Nov-2009, 21:16   #10
Shifty Geezer
uber-Troll!
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Under my bridge
Posts: 29,840
Default

Not so much luck as design, for better or worse. We really need details on what exactly they're doing to carry this coversation forward.
__________________
Shifty Geezer
...

Tolerance for internet moronism is exhausted. Anyone talking about people's attitudes in the Console fora, rather than games and technology, will feel my wrath. Read the FAQ to remind yourself how to behave and avoid unsightly incidents.
Shifty Geezer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-Nov-2009, 06:15   #11
jlippo
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 856
Default

They might be using something similar to Intels Morphological AA, which basically counts stair stepping and blends pixels to get better gradients.
http://www.realtimerendering.com/blo...-antialiasing/

This reminds me, does any developer do AA resolve after tone mapping?
Sounds like it might be nicely possible, if both passes are done with SPUs.
jlippo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-Nov-2009, 09:58   #12
PeterT
Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Austria
Posts: 700
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlippo View Post
They might be using something similar to Intels Morphological AA, which basically counts stair stepping and blends pixels to get better gradients.
http://www.realtimerendering.com/blo...-antialiasing/
Very interesting, thanks. I've been interested in post-processing (morphological) AA for a while now and have actually explored some similar ideas (in Matlab only). I wonder if the author is aware of this 1999 paper.
PeterT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-Nov-2009, 13:56   #13
Prophecy2k
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: London
Posts: 1,673
Default

Note: N00B question incoming

What's FSAA, and how does it compare to MSAA and regular AA (if there's anything like regular AA)?

Could doing this on the SPUs be something that's applicable in all games? And why has anyone else not thought of this if so?
Prophecy2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-Nov-2009, 14:56   #14
Shifty Geezer
uber-Troll!
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Under my bridge
Posts: 29,840
Default

FSAA just means Full Screen AnitAliasing. Can be MSAA or supersampling or something else. Technically an edge-based AA shouldn't be FSAA, but I don't know if anyone makes a distinction. AA is always applied across the whole screen.
__________________
Shifty Geezer
...

Tolerance for internet moronism is exhausted. Anyone talking about people's attitudes in the Console fora, rather than games and technology, will feel my wrath. Read the FAQ to remind yourself how to behave and avoid unsightly incidents.
Shifty Geezer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-Nov-2009, 19:20   #15
zed
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,651
Default

Quote:
AA is always applied across the whole screen.
not always, think line/polygon AA . In fact in the begin this was one of the main methods of AA
__________________
"The xbone is selling far better than the 360 at the same time so theres no cause for concern" signed many b3d posters
zed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-Nov-2009, 19:47   #16
Shifty Geezer
uber-Troll!
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Under my bridge
Posts: 29,840
Default

Yes, but that AA is applied to every line across the screen. Putting it another way, MSAA only antialiases at polygon edges too. Non-edge pixels are the product of a single sample and so have no antialising applied, meaning the vast majority of pixels are not antialised, just like an AA'd line-drawing method. Yet we still call that full screen antialising. The only AA method that antialises every pixel with multiple samples is supersampling, but we still call antialiasing applied only to edges as Full Screen AA.
__________________
Shifty Geezer
...

Tolerance for internet moronism is exhausted. Anyone talking about people's attitudes in the Console fora, rather than games and technology, will feel my wrath. Read the FAQ to remind yourself how to behave and avoid unsightly incidents.
Shifty Geezer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-Nov-2009, 17:27   #17
archangelmorph
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Posts: 1,551
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by assen View Post
"We're using SPUs to do a full-screen antialiasing filter" sounds more plausible, where "antialiasing filter" means something like "edge detect + blur".

Tom French is not exactly a hardcore rendering programmer, judging from his MobyGames page.
WTF kind of post is this??

Sorry but what qualifies you to know what Tom's practical expertise extends to?

Beyond that what makes you think "we're using.." implies "we" == "me"...?

__________________
blog
twitter
archangelmorph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-Nov-2009, 17:45   #18
assen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Skirts of Vitosha
Posts: 1,377
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by archangelmorph View Post
WTF kind of post is this??

Sorry but what qualifies you to know what Tom's practical expertise extends to?

Beyond that what makes you think "we're using.." implies "we" == "me"...?

No disrespect meant to Tom French; I loved Mercenaries, which seems to have been designed at least partly by him.

http://www.mobygames.com/developer/s...loperId,13698/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobygames
Thomas began his career at Interplay working on Starfleet Academy scripting missions as well as designing/scripting multiplayer modes. While finishing Starfleet he also assisted in fixing bugs in Fallout. After that he was transferred over to the newly created Black Isle division to work on Fallout 2 as a scripter where he worked on areas like New Reno, Modoc, & The Den. After F2, Thomas went on to work on all the Icewind Dale games as a programmer before being convinced to try his hand as an associate producer.

After several key players left BIS to form Obsidian, Thomas took over production responsibilities on projects Jackson and Van Buren, both which never saw the light of day as Interplay pulled the plug on BIS.

After that, Thomas started work at Pandemic Studios as a designer on Mercenaries 1 for the PS2 & XBox. With the completion of Mercs, Thomas was promoted to Lead Designer and is currently working on The Saboteur.
Lead designers in 100+ people studios usually don't get to have fun with SPUs.

Assuming some detachment on his part from the nitty-gritty details on the renderer brings his statement from the blue-sky fantasy beginnings of this thread ("MSAA resolve on the SPUs?" - which is, to my knowledge, not only impossible, but also defeats the purpose of a decent chunk of dedicated hardware in the RSX) to something more mundane and likely ("some kind of AA on the SPUs").

Don't create drama where there isn't.
__________________
Twitter
assen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-Nov-2009, 22:19   #19
mitran
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 30
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by assen View Post
No disrespect meant to Tom French; I loved Mercenaries, which seems to have been designed at least partly by him.

http://www.mobygames.com/developer/s...loperId,13698/



Lead designers in 100+ people studios usually don't get to have fun with SPUs.

Assuming some detachment on his part from the nitty-gritty details on the renderer brings his statement from the blue-sky fantasy beginnings of this thread ("MSAA resolve on the SPUs?" - which is, to my knowledge, not only impossible,
Impossible how so?
mitran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-Nov-2009, 10:16   #20
archangelmorph
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Posts: 1,551
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by assen View Post
Assuming some detachment on his part from the nitty-gritty details on the renderer brings his statement from the blue-sky fantasy beginnings of this thread ("MSAA resolve on the SPUs?" - which is, to my knowledge, not only impossible, but also defeats the purpose of a decent chunk of dedicated hardware in the RSX) to something more mundane and likely ("some kind of AA on the SPUs").
Ok for starters it's far from impossible and from the little time I've spent with SPU programming and some of the performance tests I've seen I can easily see how it's both perfectly feasible given some constraints and practical given the fact that RSX sucks so bad at doing it..

Oh and you're woefully misinformed if you think FSAA on RSX is somehow free/cheap especially when most modern engines these days are using at least some form of deferred pass for shadows/lighting/particles etc..
__________________
blog
twitter
archangelmorph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-Nov-2009, 12:32   #21
mitran
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 30
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by archangelmorph View Post
Oh and you're woefully misinformed if you think FSAA on RSX is somehow free/cheap especially when most modern engines these days are using at least some form of deferred pass for shadows/lighting/particles etc..
Q: Can it be done like this ?
A forward render pass on RSX that is 2XAA and a deferrd pass on SPU's that also has 2xAA on spu's? perhaps a deferrd 1024540 framebuffer x2aa on spu's for lighting/shadows
mitran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-Dec-2009, 21:27   #22
Arwin
Now Officially a Top 10 Poster
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Maastricht, The Netherlands
Posts: 14,854
Default

I came across this while doing some research:

http://diaryofagraphicsprogrammer.bl...ss-on-spu.html

It has a link to a PowerPoint presentation by Matt Swoboda from the PhyreEngine™ Team at SCEE, which discusses exactly what the OP is asking.

It's a very good and interesting presentation, that also discusses other stuff like Depth of Field processing. There are definitely some clear links to the technology used in Uncharted 2 and Killzone, among others.
Arwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-Dec-2009, 21:49   #23
MfA
Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5,543
Send a message via ICQ to MfA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer View Post
The only AA method that antialises every pixel with multiple samples is supersampling, but we still call antialiasing applied only to edges as Full Screen AA.
Some of us have only stopped trying to argue about it
MfA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-Dec-2009, 20:29   #24
AlNets
A bit netty
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: warp
Posts: 15,092
Default

Edit : From IQ Analysis thread, regarding Saboteur.

Both (PS3 and 360) are 720p. There's a metric ton of compression though the AA on PS3 is rather interesting. No AA on 360.

__________________
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Never scale-up, never sub-render!
"UC3's story had more platforming than the gameplay."

Last edited by Shifty Geezer; 05-Dec-2009 at 09:37. Reason: Moved posts
AlNets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-Dec-2009, 20:42   #25
Shifty Geezer
uber-Troll!
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Under my bridge
Posts: 29,840
Default

Gosh, PS3 is remarkably smooth. I find that hard to believe! Any ideas how they could pull this off?
__________________
Shifty Geezer
...

Tolerance for internet moronism is exhausted. Anyone talking about people's attitudes in the Console fora, rather than games and technology, will feel my wrath. Read the FAQ to remind yourself how to behave and avoid unsightly incidents.
Shifty Geezer is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.