Killzone 3 and MLAA

[patsu]

That would be Pal Engstad. If you watch the "Mastering the Cell processor" video he mentions they had more time to attack the hardware during U2's development, so for me it makes a lot of sense that, given the extra time, they wanted to optimize and re-write code in assembly.

It does not contradict the "no premature optimization" rule at all.

Not that I'm complaining... ^_^

I remember they made their initial recommendation in Uncharted 1 presentations. Perhaps they feel more comfortable with PS3 now, while the original recommendation was made while everyone's learning. Would be interesting to see who else use SPU assembly.

 

[i nerini del buio]

I don't understand why people are trying to compare MLAA with 4xMSAA.
Let's get this one straight: 4xMSAA on PS3, and on a game like KZ3 especially, is never going to happen. At best it's 2xMSAA or QAA. And MLAA (the way it's done in GOW3, as it's the most glaring example and the one that's being shared around within Sony's first party dev teams) definitely looks much, much better than 2xMSAA, QAA and of course 0xAA.

well, uncharted2 has "only" 2xmsaa but it looks good, clean and most of all very consistent. to me, better than gow, but maybe it's just me.

furthermore, gow has an almost fixed camera in the most of the scenes (and that's a good environment for mlaa), whereas killzone is a first person shooter and QAA on killzone2 worked just fine...

 

[patsu]

I agree QAA works fine in KZ2.

You might want to read this thread regarding GoW3's camera freedom:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=56605

 

[patsu]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it should take 20ms to execute the technique on a single SPU. That's a little too long for a single SPU, so my guess is that they'll run it in parralel with 4/5 SPU's reducing it to 4/5 ms. But how does that fit with all the other post processing beeing done by the SPU's in Killzone?

They also claimed that they are typically using 2 SPU during gameplay, sparing the rest for situations which are getting chaotic...if I remember correctly they stated that they used all SPUs during online MP.

So this does not sound to me that they are maxing SPU time in KZ2!

Yap, GG admitted that they could do more in KZ2 if given more time/resources (loosely 60% SPU utilization, if I remember correctly).

In KZ3, one of the interviews mentioned that they improved the engine performance by about 30+%. At this moment, DF claimed that some sort of MLAA is already running in the KZ3 demo.

KZ3 is said to have 10 times the scale of KZ2. I suspect the scale improvement has more to do with the new streaming system (since KZ2 didn't do level streaming).

KZ3 is also rumored to have more destructibility (mostly impact vertex work ?).

Split screen aside, the most demanding visual enhancement is probably stereoscopic 3D. The current 3D demo runs in subHD, but GG mentioned that they are targeting for 720p in the final game.

I am more curious to see if GG can do 720p stereoscopic 3D + MLAA for the SP.
The KZ3 demo is missing DoF and overall polish, but it's only pre-alpha. They still have time to play with them.

 

[JB9861]

I see no SSAO in there

I agree. Is the consensus here that MLAA and 4xAA are equal in motion? Or 4xAA would be preferable?

 

[patsu]

Depends on the game I think. MLAA in GoW3 is incredibly smooth in motion for example.

 

[Sigfried1977]

well, uncharted2 has "only" 2xmsaa but it looks good, clean and most of all very consistent. to me, better than gow, but maybe it's just me.

I agree with Uncharted 2 being the much better looking game overall (so is Killzone 2 and FFXIII), but certainly not in terms of image quality. Not even close.

 

[nightshade]

I agree with Uncharted 2 being the much better looking game overall (so is Killzone 2 and FFXIII), but certainly not in terms of image quality. Not even close.

Indeed..pretty much everything in UC2 messes up the MSAA , it still looks clean & sharp but not even close to GOW3 level or for say another 2*MSAA tittle like FF13. (imo FF13 is the cleanest looking 720p/2*MSAA game)

 

[joker454]

Out of what, a hundred games? And MSAA is as prone to breaking as MLAA in cases, particular HDR where edges aren't resolved to LDR before lerping. And whatever options XB360 has, PS3 hasn't the memory or bandwidth to support 4xMSAA in most titles. MLAA is a processing cost, not a bandwidth or memory one. 4xMSAA on the majority of PS3 titles isn't going to happen, but MLAA on the majority of titles could, and will be a marked improvement over the common zero AA PS3 gamers are used to.

It was implied that 4xmsaa this gen was rare. All I'm saying is that it's not, there are games that use it, some full time some on just the important items. I wasn't commenting on either version 'breaking' as you say, and I haven't seen mlaa it in action yet so can't comment on it either. But when you say 'marked improvement', well you'd have to explain that one to me because the whole thing is extremely confusing. For years versions of the same game were considered visually identical across consoles even if one version had anti aliasing and the other didn't because most people either just didn't notice the jaggies, or they just weren't all that detracting to them. Just look back at other peoples older posts about aliasing on this very forum. So I always assumed that to most people here aliasing just wasn't a big deal. Imagine my surprise when all of a sudden it has become the single most important determinant of visual fidelity. So yeah, I'm totally confused as to how it is now considered 'marked improvement', when before it wasn't even noticeable on games with egregious aliasing issues like Mirrors Edge PS3.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Please don't pull in fanboy wars nonsense. MLAA offers considerable antialiasing quality, irrespective of whether people care about AA or not which is an entirely different subject. As for some games having 4xMSAA, 'some out of many == rare'.

 

[Cyan]

What game has managed 4xMSAA in "all others"? Perfectly applied MSAA is a very rare thing nowadays.

Seems better to have up to 16xAA and some sub pixel issues rather than up to 4XAA and post process/lighting issues.

I'd say GRID. It was one of the most clean looking games I have played to this date and I dont remember a game this whole generation as sharp looking as this one. It kept the image quality 100% of the time, which doesn't always happen in most games.

MLAA is quite an achievement nowadays when we seemed to be stuck with AAx2 in most games and no AA in quite a few, so I think the more games can benefit from it on the PS3, the better.

In my opinion, KZ3 (not the kind of game I usually like though) and other games of different genres, like LBP2 -this one I like a lot more-, will benefit immensely from it.

I also think Sony should change their politics, and share that technology with 3rd party studios, because well, we are not reinventing the wheel here and those things shouldn't remain secret and only available to a selected few.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'd say GRID. It was one of the most clean looking games I have played to this date and I dont remember a game this whole generation as sharp looking as this one. It kept the image quality 100% of the time, which doesn't always happen in most games.

Warhawk had constant 4x MSAA and looked excellently clean, but the visuals otherwise were pretty undemanding.

 

[jonabbey]

Warhawk had constant 4x MSAA and looked excellently clean, but the visuals otherwise were pretty undemanding.

A very nice trade off, though, given what Warhawk's game play is like.

Don't know of another 4xMSAA game on the PS3, myself.

 

[Sigfried1977]

Siren had 4xMSAA as well, did it not? Probably wouldn't have looked a great deal different at 2xMSAA or even 0xMSAA considering the sheer amount of artificial noise that was layered over the image, and despite the rather modest native resolution.

 

[patsu]

What 'bout Heavenly Sword ?
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1113342&postcount=2 (720p 4xAA).

Also, quoting some acronyms doesn't mean the game will have good AA. It's still up to individual implementations. I am hoping for a variety of MLAA subsystems to suit different work load for example.

 

[London Geezer]

We can also mention - for the 10000th time, i think there's a memory loss issue on these boards - that effectiveness of AA on the IQ varies so much according to the game because of colour palettes, contrast in different scenes and yawn i'm already bored.

GOW3's colour palette (= dark, darker, darkest) allowed it to have a generally 'stable' contrast. Very few instances of starking contrast (black-white, red-green etc...). This of course makes it a little harder to catch the jaggies, even if it had no AA. Same for KZ2, but in that case QAA blurs everything so much that the jaggies is the least of our problems!

Uncharted 2 had a less 'forgiving' contrast for its AA method. It still looks pretty clean but the variety in colours and contrasts - which gives the game its amazing look in its own right - makes it harder to hide the jaggies, especially with a measly 2xAA @ 720p.

Now, some vitamin B6 for everyone!!

 

[patsu]

Hah ! I already said it depends on individual games. B6 for everyone else.

 

[Neb]

Zink and magnesium to for good sleep.

 

[dah145]

A very nice trade off, though, given what Warhawk's game play is like.

Don't know of another 4xMSAA game on the PS3, myself.

GT5P has 4xAA too.

 

[N_B]

It was implied that 4xmsaa this gen was rare.

No it wasn't

4xMSAA simply being used isn't rare. Perfectly applied and consistent 4xMSAA is rare.