Kutaragi on delay and on sony

Titanio - That's really a matter of quality over quantity. Enchant Arms, Blue Dragon, Lost Oddyssey, Resident Evil 5, Dead Rising, Lost Planet, Cry On, Trusty Bell, The Tri-Ace RPG.

XBOX never saw japanese titles of this calibre, it did not have a single japanese RPG in 4 years. How can anyone say that we're not seeing a trend here...

CRayon - I didn't argue that equal install base = equal game libraries. But obviously install base is a major factor in the overall picture.
 
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Perfect illustration: Soul Calibur two.
Not really, since it's sold the best on Gamecube.

360 seems to have quite a killer line-up in 2007: Halo 3, Bioshock, Lost Planet, Blue Dragon, Mass Effect, GTA 4, Assassin's Creed and A LOT more. If these titles don't help the system to sell millions units I think it's over for Microsoft.:rolleyes:
 
That's really a matter of quality over quantity. Enchant Arms, Blue Dragon, Lost Oddyssey, Resident Evil 5, Dead Rising, Lost Planet, Cry On, Trusty Bell, The Tri-Ace RPG.

XBOX never saw japanese titles of this calibre, it did not have a single japanese RPG in 4 years. How can anyone say that we're not seeing a trend here...

The content may improve, but of the titles you've listed, at least two of them are first party (not relevant in a debate re. multiplatform-ism), and only two have been released yet. RE5 and Tri-Ace's RPG can probably be given the benefit of the doubt, though re. quality, at least :)

(But Xbox did get quality or higher profile japanese titles like Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance, Jet Set Radio Future, Steel Battalion, Shenmue II, Genma Onimusha, Dynasty Warriors 3, The House of the Dead II, DOA3, Silent Hill 2 etc., all of these just within its first year or so (apparently). So I don't know if I buy that it was deficient compared to 360's, at least so far.)
 
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XBOX never saw japanese titles of this calibre, it did not have a single japanese RPG in 4 years. How can anyone say that we're not seeing a trend here...
IIRC XB did have a fair bit of Japanese support at launch, but it quickly died when it was seen the console had no momentum in the market. That may well be in part to the fact PS2 had some well developed titles launch around the same time. FFX and MGS2 I think.

BTW - Did anyone else know MGS2:Substance was released on the XB? :oops:
 
XBOX never saw japanese titles of this calibre, it did not have a single japanese RPG in 4 years. How can anyone say that we're not seeing a trend here...

CRayon - I didn't argue that equal install base = equal game libraries. But obviously install base is a major factor in the overall picture.

Truth on both counts. Specifically the first.

My gaming tastes basicly cut a line right into the heart of the "traditional" Playstation library (GT, MGS, DMC, FF, all please... take anything. give them to me.) and I already find the 360 library + fall lineup more compelling than the entire XBox back catalogue. The XBox for me had not a single game worth playing for a whole year until that first November when Mechassault came out! A year and not one game. Mechassault came and suddenly I was like "alright, MS now you're speaking my language!" but there was just no enough of that.

Now, Lost Planet is right up my alley, I love it to peices. I've got an eye on Gears because (I think) it has a nice fresh western take on Japanese principles (see: God of War) and they they did a little foot-stomping when Street Fighter came to XBLA, which I really appreciate. It's almost like a whole new thing compared to the origional XBox, which was just plain undesireable to me. I bought the XBox games I was interested in, and played them (I liked Armed and Dangerous better than Halo. Yes I know it wasn't as good.) but there was no reason to have the box sitting around taking up good shelfspace. Same arrangement with Gamecube but I bough alot more games.

Now the XBox360 is doing alot better in terms of catering to my tastes but the chasm between it and the Playstation is such taht it's still not even close. I'd relate the 360 library as more like the GameCube in terms of absolute appeal, to me.
 
Shifty Geezer;828323\ said:
BTW - Did anyone else know MGS2:Substance was released on the XB? :oops:

lol, nope! Why'd they bring 2 when they should've brought 3 that's the real question! I hated 2, but am dying to try out 3...
 
lol, nope! Why'd they bring 2 when they should've brought 3 that's the real question! I hated 2, but am dying to try out 3...

They didn't bring out 3 for the reasons it was covered above. MGS2:S trades for high prices on on PS2 even with the availability of the origional. On XBox, the game was snubbed. Wouldn't have been any different for 3.

I'd venture to say taht if you didn't like 2 you'd like 3 even less. Theres actually a scene where you climb a lader for five whole minutes while a james-bondesque themesong kicks in -with vocals- and plays in it's entirety. The things that seemed to turn off people to MGS2 were only amplified in 3.

Personally, I think the game was absolutly gobsmackingly astounding. Head and shoulders better than any media I took in all year.
 
Titanio said:
Looking at what's been released that doesn't actually hold true, or doesn't seem like it will (looking at third party, japanese releases, by the numbers). I'm using gamerankings here, so beware if there's errors therein, but it lists 9 third party japanese titles released to date on 360, while Xbox had 23 or 24 by the end of 2002. In order to catch up, we'll need to see 14 or 15 releases by the end of the year on 360.

That does little to prove anything...
We know the japanese are just shifting into next-gen development. It is a fact than no one will refute, next-gen begins with PS3 for japanese publishers, though Wii is looking over ominously.

But I don't know if an improvement over Xbox really would say much about the state of Japanese multiplatform-ism in absolute terms anyway..

I am sure you can see the improvement, no?


Crayon said:
Related:
Do we really know why PS2 got so many more games? Was it purely the size of the userbase or did it have something to do with demographic?

Perception breeds userbase which form sort of perceived safety net for publishers.

Perfect illustration: Soul Calibur two. It had marketing and hype the likes of which I thought I would never see for a traditional (ahem, proper) fighting game. Namco went thru great lengths to balance out each platform, getting the game to run perfectly on each console, having unique features, synchronising launch and even having seperate print ads. Yet all said and done, the game merely did okay on XBox and Gamecube. Meanwhile on PS2 it did gangbusters. And it didn't seem to be merely userbase. It's just that the fighting fans all know that the go-to is Playstation. It just is. Then for Soul Calibur 3, Namco just made the quality game, skipped the marketing circus and just released for PS2 only, letting the fighting fans gobble it up without a bunch of hoopla.

I thought Link version of SC2 sold the most and i heard Sony paid for SC3 exclusive.

What about poor, unfortunate Panzer Dragoon Orta for a flipside example? Fans have been clamoring for years. Sega picks up the torch and delivers with a hell of a game, and they ugh... release on XBox. Game sinks like a rock. We'll have no sequal for awhile. And MS doesn't even bother to update it for backwards compatibility. Outrun 2. Ditto. Shenmue 2 Ditto. The XBox demo just didn't care for them.

PDO would probably flop on PS2 too though there is an element of safety net.
360 backwards compatibility is a late and half arsed decision but i dont see it at all contributing to Sega.

And it's obvious to me. I've only met two types of XBox owners, besides the clever hackjob media-streamer guys. There's the hyper-hardcore gamer who has a NeoGeo pocket Color import in the origional packagin. So he's got everything. This type of gamer seems to like their XBox very much. But they are few and far between. The vast majority of the XBox homes I've seen are very much into casual gamers who do pretty much Sport (primarily Madeen) and Halo. And marijuana. Not that there's anything wrong with that. They occasionally venture out of their comfort zone with something like Manhunt.

This can obviosuly change. And I can already see it starting to change with 360, for whatever reason. But alot of gamers know that if you are into fighting or rpg or hard shooters or puzzle or concept or import or strategy you are going to need a Playstation pretty much no two ways about it. Maybe it has to do with these genres being rooted in Japan. I know it's the main reason I'm going to pay more money for a PS3 over a 360. I know several gamers who are passing over the 360 for this reason, despite the fact that they are passing on PS3 because the price is too steep. They just know that the flavor of the 360 library isn't their thing. These are primarily what I would call pretty serious gamers. They understand games but they have jobs and pay bills so they aren't out just buying everything up.

Anecdotal evidence that leaves nothing much for discussion.

FYI it is the maddens and halos gamers that generate those big sales numbers Sony love to have on their powerpoints. "Serious" gamers are a smaller part whose decisions will likely never change. They will be first up contributing to the safety net.

Im not saying japanese games are out of the equation(i still love them) but i do notice a loss of sales in the west as western developers grow in strength and creativity.

It is still down to how MS can change pre-conceived perceptions. From my place, i can see them having a solid, if not spectacular go at it.
 
They didn't bring out 3 for the reasons it was covered above. MGS2:S trades for high prices on on PS2 even with the availability of the origional. On XBox, the game was snubbed. Wouldn't have been any different for 3.

I'd venture to say taht if you didn't like 2 you'd like 3 even less. Theres actually a scene where you climb a lader for five whole minutes while a james-bondesque themesong kicks in -with vocals- and plays in it's entirety. The things that seemed to turn off people to MGS2 were only amplified in 3.

Personally, I think the game was absolutly gobsmackingly astounding. Head and shoulders better than any media I took in all year.

I highly doubt MGS3 would've bombed on XBOX, critically it was rated much better than MGS2. My main problem with 2 was the complete lack of variety, and the nonsensical story, not to mention Raiden just sucked.
 
I highly doubt MGS3 would've bombed on XBOX, critically it was rated much better than MGS2. My main problem with 2 was the complete lack of variety, and the nonsensical story, not to mention Raiden just sucked.

Origional versions of MGS 2 and 3 are sittign at 95 and 91 percent, respectivly on Gamerankings. Not exactly prrof, but it's something. Not to mention MGS3 was soft both in both the hype stakes and the subsequent sales compared to 2. Konami gave the XBox MGS2:S even delaying the announcement of the PS2 version so as to get a good test in the XBox demo. The the demo said "No. We don't like homoerotic vampires. Homoerotic vampires are gay. Raiden is gay 2. He does cartwheels it's gay. Talking is stupid. Theres alot of talking. We'll buy Splinter Cell, thank you." That's pretty much the sentiment I got, anyways.

If MGS2 bombed then MGS3 would bomb harder. That's how I see it and that's obviously how Konami saw it. The MGS fans are already decided on a Playstation. What's the point of placing it somewhere else?
 
I thought Link version of SC2 sold the most and i heard Sony paid for SC3 exclusive.
As of 2005, I believe the PS2 and GC sales were equal (and ~300K ahead of the Xbox). While I don't know how many sales they've had since then, that puts it a good year-and-a-half past launch, so I don't expect too much nor too much extra profits since it would have hit budget prices by then.

While the "gangbusters" comment is right out, I think the "paid exclusivity" comment is equally baseless as well. There's never any real way to tell without official announcements (as if that happens often), and in the meanwhile I don't see much reason to discount Namco's official comments. SC3 was indeed ramping up the coding difficulty, and porting to two other platforms would likely have added a long time to the process, pushing back the launch and--more importantly--keeping the team from moving on to their NEXT-gen Soul Calibur, which I'm sure at the time the considered more important.

SC3 would still be a good experiment, though, and see just how the players respond to the features they were adding and determine how the best way to make SC4 would be. And they still had every reason to expect it would sell better on the PS2, as:

- SC2 on the Cube was one of the only fighting games of that type--and really the only one of stature--and the higher-than-expected would be expected to drop as many of the GC owners would be sated. Or at least not be as hungry. ;)
- There are plenty of multiple-console owners out there, and they would be more likely to pick up the better versions for the GC and Xbox, but if there was no choice in the matter, they'd simply fall back on their PS2.
- Overall, their fighting game audience was much more prevalent on the PS2 due to the presence of so many other games and notable brands--and the exclusive presence of some of the most trusted and popular series.

More reasons could be piled on, but I think that's enough to explain why they assumed the PS2 would bring in the most profit. ;) Add that to it being the easiest for them to program for and with all likelihood wanting to get SC3 out quick to move onto their next-gen iteration...

Of course I could easily be wrong about all that and Sony DID work out some deal (issa complex work out there), but overall that's why I don't think it's necessary to look that way just on random rumor.

------------------------


Now of course SC3 did NOT sell as well (I'm not sure of its' numbers, but it started selling at around 10 and dropped slowly over the next few months while PS2 SC2 started higher (like, #4) and stayed longer, if I remember correctly), but I hardly blame that on platform choice. I think it was still respectable, but not what they were hoping for.

A) Fighting games themselves have been on the decline.
B) They were following up a strong-ass game like Soul Calibur II way too quickly--for fighting games in general and ESPECIALLY in relation to the series itself.
C) It didn't receive the marketing blitz SC2 did. (Though it was not poorly marketed by any stretch.)
D) There was no arcade game out previously to get the hardcore fighting gamers excited, or keep up the visual presence that would make them eventually give in and buy the game.
E) The game--to my understanding--is buggier than SC2, which tends to draw down the hardcore audience.


Personally I think Namco should have branded it differently--say, call it "Soul Calibur Universe" and really push the "overworld" action, different game modes, and customizability--so as to not make gamers think it was as fully-fledged a follow-up as SC1 was to Soul Edge and SC2 was to SC1. Raising expectations, frustrating folks who expect multi-platform excitement... gamers crave not these things. Save the "Soul Calibur 3" name for their truly next-gen version. As it stands, they've diluted the franchise somewhat and confused their loyalists, who tend to be easy to fool and with even just a different name would have been much more happy with SC3 as "experiment" than SC3 as "follow-up... but not for everybody!" Heh...

None of this is to say that SC3 is a bad game, of course. Because it isn't by any stretch of the imagination. ^_^

--cough-- This IS one helluva tangent in reply to one random line in a post, though. My bad...

Can anyone tell I like fighting games? Hehe.
 
What major games? I can only think of Final Fantasy 13 and Metal Gear 4 that will sell past the million mark in Europe. You make it sound like there are more. Are you even sure of the actual importance of japanese games in Europe? What makes you think Sony can easily round up(exclusives) japanese publishers? Is there a guarantee that japanese publishers will stick(exclusives) with Sony again?

Sony can delay the thing, lose some exclusives, all that will be forgotten if they can set another PR victory with PS3. PS2 sold on perception. Perception first, games will come a little later. I have to agree with Sethamin.

You are wrong. Europenas love MGS, FF, Tekken, Gran Turismo, Ace Combat, Devil May Cry, and generally are more interested on the Playstation brand.

What exlusives did PS3 lose? GTA? Assasin's creed? :???: Games that have never been exclusives? What are these major exclusives because I ve missed them
 
To bring the debate on "major games" and exclusivity into a little more focus, here's a list of the most popular franchises that were strictly exclusive to one console platform last gen. So it does not count timed exclusives, but as it turns out, such are small in number among the list of most popular franchises. "A most popular franchise" here, is one in which a game in the series sold 1m or more units in the generation. This data is all sourced from wikipedia, so E&OE:

PS2:

Gran Turismo
Final Fantasy (main series)
Kingdom Hearts
Dragon Quest (main series)
Tekken
Eye Toy
SOCOM
The Getaway
Jak and Daxter
Ratchet & Clank
Ace Combat
Devil May Cry
Hot Shots Golf
ATV Offroad Fury
Virtua Fighter
God of War
Twisted Metal
Sly Cooper

As mentioned above, this covers strict exclusives - a few other franchises might be worth noting, simply because most of the entries in those franchises appeared only on PS2. They are Silent Hill, Metal Gear, Onimusha, Dynasty Warriors.

Xbox:

Halo
Fable
Project Gotham Racing
Forza Motorsport
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic

In the same vein as above, Dead or Alive is also worth a mention.

Gamecube:

Super Smash Bros
Mario Kart
Super Mario
The Legend of Zelda
Luigi's Mansion
Metroid
Pokémon
Mario Party
Animal Crossing
Star Fox
Pikmin
Paper Mario
Kirby
Mario Golf
Mario Tennis
Donkey Konga
Super Mario Strikers
Star Wars: Rogue Squadron/Rebel Strike

The Gamecube list is fairly irrelevant to the debate since its almost entirely made up of first party games (and I guess so is the Xbox list, come to think of it, unless we count DOA/KOTOR).

Looking at the PS2, there's been no poaching of the most popular exclusives to date. About half are first party anyway, so they're out of the picture, and of the remainder, only 3 of the strict exclusives have yet to have a next-generation iteration announced - the rest have to date been announced for PS3 only.

Of course, this does not tell the whole story. The libraries are more than the sum of 'just' the most popular franchises. There are lots of other smaller games that all add up. But if we're talking about 'major' true exclusives, this might be useful.

edit - I guess I'll include Roque Squadron/Rebel Strike in the GC list if we're including KoTOR on the Xbox list.
 
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Oops! I missed that, because I was scanning the first words and just saw "star wars" and didn't pay it any more heed (because most star wars games are multiplatform). Sorry about that, I've updated the list!
 
Can anyone tell I like fighting games? Hehe.

Son, Ima call you Buck cuz you got so many points!
Don't forget Ridge Racer 5/Soul Calibur 2/Tekken4/Tekken 5 were all running on Namco's Sys246 making the PS2 "port" not much or a port at all. More of a re release. Thanks for all the useful input. If you ever want to geek about fighting games, I'm here for ya.



...might be useful.

Try tremendously useful.

Look at the dominace of Japanese games! Looking back at my own gaming in the last fifteen years, western developers have been innovating but Japanese games are the sure bet for quality.
 
You think? :rolleyes: Then you bad rep ME telling me i'm touchy? The cheek! Again! I give up on you. You have no excuse for being moody, at least i can say i can be a drama queen, which in this case doesn't even apply.

I think is said you were being 'overly defensive' ;) On the topic at hand, you were still completely wrong.

I'm still waiting for your explanation how the PS3 library will outnumber 360 five to one like PS2:XBOX....seriously back up your statement or admit you're totally exagerating. Illustrate to me how that is even close to a reasonable expectation....
 
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To bring the debate on "major games" and exclusivity into a little more focus, here's a list of the most popular franchises that were strictly exclusive to one console platform last gen. So it does not count timed exclusives, but as it turns out, such are small in number among the list of most popular franchises. "A most popular franchise" here, is one in which a game in the series sold 1m or more units in the generation.

I'm not sure that is a fair comparison because of the huge difference in installed base, it was rather easy to sell 1m on PS2 compared to Xbox because only like 1% people had to bought it, basically that list is only good for seeing what larger installer base provides and how important that is to the publishers. Ninja Gaiden must be really close to 1million, but it's hard to find sales numbers, the original sold over 600k in US and if you factor in Black it's surely over 1mil worldwide.
 
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