Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2023]

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As is every console up until the PS5....
Switch's GPU also has a variable clock rate. As for the PS4 and Xbox One, yes, they were both designed around this same ancient design philosophy even though it was pretty much irradicated from the then current PC architectures for both CPU and GPU.
 
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Couldn't you argue then that the XSX's hardware advantage was needed just to simply maintain parity?

I'm not sure exactly what the expectations were for the XSX even just going with the paper specs.

The gap is much smaller than that of the PS4 and Xbox One, so I don't think people should've been expecting a reversal this gen.

In terms of actual practical differences well the gap is smaller than the that of say the 3060ti and 3070, and I would bet if you manually just tuned PC game settings and did A/B blind testing people would be hard pressed to spot the difference. And that is with rather higher level "optimizing" with 0 advantages going to the lower hardware spec.

As an aside personally I feel that if MS and Sony rely on a common supplier for the main processing hardware MS is going to have a hard time gaining any type of hardware differentiation advantage just due to market dynamics.
Indeed. And I suspect if I go through my post history, I'd probably find a post I made along a similar vein. I think on the topic whether compute as a marketing metric versus compute as an actual metric are probably 2 different topics. I'm going to go with DF leaning towards discussing the marketing aspect, as it's clear compute matters. As pointed out, XSX is at a deficit nearly everywhere else, so the fact that it continues to put up equal or better resolution at times, is probably indicative of the compute difference putting in the work there to blanket it out. Compute most certainly matters, and if it didn't matter, people wouldn't be discussing the importance of a mid-gen refresh model having 2x more compute. But as a marketing topic, its clear that compute alone isn't the only metric that matters, we just assume the rest of the pipeline is sufficient in size to support that size of compute, which has been a decent barometer for some time now.

I think for there to be a practical difference, there were a lot of things that XSX could have done to generate that difference, mainly the things I listed earlier, but it all comes back to cost, and cost is the killer of everything. If XSX released with 20GB of memory, variable clock rates and a full complement of ROPS and perhaps re-organized it's CU/SE ratio, maybe that could very well been considered a mid-gen refresh device at launch (looking over at what PS5 Pro has allegedly has) At least very close to it. But all those things, are corners cut to make XSX work at the price point it is.

But you are right, with both companies choosing the same supplier, it's very difficult to get away with hardware differentiation unless you're making your own software stack integrated into the hardware (ie DLSS, XESS, etc)
 
i game since i was 3. I'm a gamegineer.

We have yet to see a game that constantly streams the next 1s of gameplay from scratch, sure games like R&C and dark souls remake do that in some instances, but not for long periods of gameplay.
And then the rest of the hardware has to be able to process it, i mean the matrix demo in not even close to doing this, and it's still hugely detailed while not running at a perfect framerate on consoles.
 
Can't tell you how much I love these "insights" from Beyond3D game developers lol.

It's your turn to write a letter to Bluepoint and let them know they're wrong. We must put an end to the lying developers and lying hardware engineers like Bluepoint Games and Mark Cerny.

Do you have any idea how much storage, time and money is required for such a streaming system?

Try putting a little thought in to what others are saying about the technical side of it.

It would be the world's first game to require 1TB+ of storage.
 
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yes the tech is great, but it has to find its use.
PS4 pro double rate FP16 sounded good on paper, but did any actual game made extensive use of it last gen ?
 
yes the tech is great, but it has to find its use.
PS4 pro double rate FP16 sounded good on paper, but did any actual game made extensive use of it last gen ?
It was a big part of making checkerboard rendering viable from what I understand. Which definitely got a fair bit of usage in games. I think I remember Far Cry 5 used it for something as well. But really, that's also one of those things that we likely just aren't gonna hear developers talking about too much, either. That's kind of getting into the nitty gritty of performance optimization and gamers just generally dont care about that kind of thing.
 
There are lots. XBSX went large on ML which looks to be the future of gaming, but it's also looking like it won't be the future this generation. The Cell Processor Tech was backed by some great minds, big companies, and big investment, but it went nowhere because GPUs took over those workloads. Sega thought there'd be another generation of 2D games, and Kutaragi thought devs would use his VU0 processor to enable amazing things on PS2. DX12 was going to be amazingly awesome making PC's more like consoles, but it's just slowed down gaming for years.

Tech can be notoriously hard to predict, particularly when software and hardware are evolving independently and the software can be constrained by business considerations, necessarily hampering ideal tech use. A visionary having a vision won't necessarily manifest that vision in the real world.
 
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DF has uploaded a retrospective on The Order 1886 for the supporter tier. This game still looks as good as any game out there. No other game has better materials.
 

Released in February 2015, The Order: 1886 was a stunning PlayStation 4 game at the cutting-edge of rendering technology, with visuals that still hold up today. The game's release pre-dated in-depth Digital Foundry coverage, something we're looking to address with this new video! Ready at Dawn's game never received a sequel and never received a PS4 Pro upgrade, but thanks to developments with exploited, older firmware PS5 consoles, we can now show you the game running locked at 60 frames per second.
 
There are lots. XBSX went large on ML which looks to be the future of gaming, but it's also looking like it won't be the future this generation. The Cell Processor Tech was backed by some great minds, big companies, and big investment, but it went nowhere because GPUs took over those workloads. Sega thought there'd be another generation of 2D games, and Kutaragi thought devs would use his VU0 processor to enable amazing things on PS2. DX12 was going to be amazingly awesome making PC's more like consoles, but it's just slowed down gaming for years.

Tech can be notoriously hard to predict, particularly when software and hardware are evolving independently and the software can be constrained by business considerations, necessarily hampering ideal tech use. A visionary having a vision won't necessarily manifest that vision in the real world.
I'd say DX12 has overall been a very solid positive, but it was a slow start and despite all the advantages it offers in terms of new features and performance potential, it comes with some rather unsurprising downsides in terms of extra potential complications.
 
From the graphically impressive games I count Ryse, Killzone Shadowfall, The Order 1886, AC: Unity, Alien: Isolation and Battlefront 2015 among those who belong to the early phase of the last console generation.

AC: Unity has many strengths but unlike Ryse and The Order 1886 it has some clearly visible weaknesses like objects suddenly appearing. The Order 1886 is perfection. However, they could have placed the cover objects a bit more cleverly. In The Division they fit more natural into the landscape.

Although Ryse and The Order 1886 are ancient they could be released today and they wouldn't stand out negatively graphically. For comparison just look at what the games looked like 10 years before Ryse. Ryse and The Order 1886 would even look better than many current games. The graphical leap from a flickering, artifact rich and often implausible-looking top tier PlayStation 3 game like The Last of Us to a polished and filmic looking game like The Order 1886 was gigantic for the few months difference.

The second phase started for me in 2016 with games like The Division, Quantum Break and Uncharted 4.

The last phase is RDR2, The Last of Us 2 and Detroit Become Human.

You often can't make out any big technical leaps among the top titles. The hardware was quickly mastered. In return, the projects became more and more ambitious over the years.

However, there are also exceptions. Naughy Dog was able to improve the graphics of The Last of Us 2 a lot compared to Uncharted 4.


EDIT

From my point of view DigitalFoundry could have also named Quantic Dream around the 6:40 minute mark as one of the early studios which worked with physially based materials. For a PlayStation 3 game Beyond Two Souls looked phantasitic in places with smaller areas.

Beyond: Two Souls is one of the first AAA titles to use a physically based rendering pipeline. Though every material doesn’t use physically based rendering, the foundation is more evident in the PS4-bound Detroit: Become Human.
 
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From the graphically impressive games I count Ryse, Killzone Shadowfall, The Order 1886, AC: Unity, Alien: Isolation and Battlefront 2015 among those who belong to the early phase of the last console generation.

AC: Unity has many strengths but unlike Ryse and The Order 1886 it has some clearly visible weaknesses like objects suddenly appearing. The Order 1886 is perfection. However, they could have placed the cover objects a bit more cleverly. In The Division they fit more natural into the landscape.

Although Ryse and The Order 1886 are ancient they could be released today and they wouldn't stand out negatively graphically. For comparison just look at what the games looked like 10 years before Ryse. Ryse and The Order 1886 would even look better than many current games. The graphical leap from a flickering, artifact rich and often implausible-looking top tier PlayStation 3 game like The Last of Us to a polished and filmic looking game like The Order 1886 was gigantic for the few months difference.

The second phase started for me in 2016 with games like The Division, Quantum Break and Uncharted 4.

The last phase is RDR2, The Last of Us 2 and Detroit Become Human.

You often can't make out any big technical leaps among the top titles. The hardware was quickly mastered. In return, the projects became more and more ambitious over the years.

However, there are also exceptions. Naughy Dog was able to improve the graphics of The Last of Us 2 a lot compared to Uncharted 4.


EDIT

From my point of view DigitalFoundry could have also named Quantic Dream around the 6:40 minute mark as one of the early studios which worked with physially based materials. For a PlayStation 3 game Beyond Two Souls looked phantasitic in places with smaller areas.



I have to include dead rising 3 as an early wow example.

Here is dead rising 2

and here is dead rising 3

The jump at least to me in the amount of zombies , fidelity of zombies and the huge open world really set it apart from the x360/ps3 era ones. It cleans up really nice too on the x


even better on the pc

 
There are lots. XBSX went large on ML which looks to be the future of gaming, but it's also looking like it won't be the future this generation. The Cell Processor Tech was backed by some great minds, big companies, and big investment, but it went nowhere because GPUs took over those workloads. Sega thought there'd be another generation of 2D games, and Kutaragi thought devs would use his VU0 processor to enable amazing things on PS2. DX12 was going to be amazingly awesome making PC's more like consoles, but it's just slowed down gaming for years.

Tech can be notoriously hard to predict, particularly when software and hardware are evolving independently and the software can be constrained by business considerations, necessarily hampering ideal tech use. A visionary having a vision won't necessarily manifest that vision in the real world.

I'd love to know if FSR2 for XSX takes advantage of the extra ML grunt that the XSX has?
Or any of the current Tech upscalers? FSR2, XeSS ( I assume it's possible to get this running on XSX, even if via the dp4a path), or Epic's TSR?
Perhaps the 4Bit Int precision is too low for processing image data?
The XSX has 97 Tops of 4bit int, is it able to do half that but with 8bit int?

I would like to assume that MS has some of their very best people working on optimizing FSR2 and TSR for use with the current Xbox consoles, but who knows?
 
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