Zig&Zag: Now Sony management change, layoffs

[ihamoitc2005]

Sony mindset

It wont look any better for the consumer unless you own all Sony products.

Also, why, on my Sony DCR-HC90 minidv camcorder, can i not use industry standard hot-show accessories? This includes the ones made by Sony, with the new shoe you must buy Sony hot-shoe acessories.

In the end this is why i was reluctant to get very descriptive regarding this with Sony becuase unless you measure your words carefully youre setting youreself up for flaming.

Also, my original post was more a question than a statement and this is an overall perception that i have, based on a series of non-specific events filed away in my head.

J

Sony mindset is a little like Apple.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

LOTS of companies do that. Many years ago if you bought certain brand name PCs you'd pay twice as much for a memory upgrades because they used proprietary memory. Same chips as normal memory but in a custom package so they could overcharge. MS themselves have tried all sorts of ways to introduce proprietary software tech to promote an MS way of doing things, including messing around with open standards.

By using MemoryStick Sony are promoting a Sony deivce family. Say you've got a MemStick for PSP and are looking for a digital camera. Buying a Sony camera means you can use the MemStick directly. And then when looking for a TV maybe a TV with MemStick support to show your pics will add extra value. And if you don't like that way of doing things, you can buy alternative products. Sony don't have a monopoly (which is why they're not being taken to court under unfair competition laws all the time like MS )

Cell as a proprietary tech adds this 'added value' to Sony and Cell compatible devices, if it's every implemented as such.

 

[mckmas8808]

LOTS of companies do that. Many years ago if you bought certain brand name PCs you'd pay twice as much for a memory upgrades because they used proprietary memory. Same chips as normal memory but in a custom package so they could overcharge. MS themselves have tried all sorts of ways to introduce proprietary software tech to promote an MS way of doing things, including messing around with open standards.

By using MemoryStick Sony are promoting a Sony deivce family. Say you've got a MemStick for PSP and are looking for a digital camera. Buying a Sony camera means you can use the MemStick directly. And then when looking for a TV maybe a TV with MemStick support to show your pics will add extra value. And if you don't like that way of doing things, you can buy alternative products. Sony don't have a monopoly (which is why they're not being taken to court under unfair competition laws all the time like MS )

Cell as a proprietary tech adds this 'added value' to Sony and Cell compatible devices, if it's every implemented as such.

QFT.

 

[expletive]

LOTS of companies do that. Many years ago if you bought certain brand name PCs you'd pay twice as much for a memory upgrades because they used proprietary memory. Same chips as normal memory but in a custom package so they could overcharge. MS themselves have tried all sorts of ways to introduce proprietary software tech to promote an MS way of doing things, including messing around with open standards.

By using MemoryStick Sony are promoting a Sony deivce family. Say you've got a MemStick for PSP and are looking for a digital camera. Buying a Sony camera means you can use the MemStick directly. And then when looking for a TV maybe a TV with MemStick support to show your pics will add extra value. And if you don't like that way of doing things, you can buy alternative products. Sony don't have a monopoly (which is why they're not being taken to court under unfair competition laws all the time like MS )

Cell as a proprietary tech adds this 'added value' to Sony and Cell compatible devices, if it's every implemented as such.

I understand the concept of promoting the product family, but to me its not promotion, its "once you buy the first one we're going to make it more difficult to use anything but our products". Its like joining Amway. I'm sure there is other subtle 'coersion' in the CE industry, it just hasnt been as blatantly obvious (to me at least) with any other brand of anything ive ever owned.

I know we've touched on this already but how does it benefit the consumer if they own a cell-based DVD player, to buy a cell based camcorder or TV? If that is, in fact, your point.

As far as the MS litigation, i think in the software industry it is much easier "steal" IP and also much easier to claim it was "stolen". Not saying MS are a bunch of choirboys (i'm sure not by a long shot) but lots of the larger software/IP companies spend lots of time in court (e.g. the whole RAMBUS/JEDEC mess) both justly and unjustly.

J

 

[Sis]

Microsoft obviously has a lot of distinguished CS researchers on its payroll. Not sure what has come out of all this however. The tablet PC, a pet project of Gates, really hasn't taken off. Nor has Media Center Edition, although they will continue to emphasize it, to complement the X360 and as a Vista SKU. Nor did Portable Media Center.

Product initiatives like IPTV and their phone and PDA OSes do seem designed to fill a perceived market need. IOW, the technology didn't lead to these products, it was just to jump into new markets and possible sources of revenues.

It was interesting that in the wake of E3, MS trotted out people from its Advanced Technology Group to explain the advantages of the X360 vis a vis PS3. Not sure if this ATG is part of their pure research arm or more of a product development organization.

But I seem to recall that they showcased how their pure research people were working on graphics, new kinds of displays, etc.

Some decent points here, but to clarify:

Media Center is taking off:

http://www.currentanalysis.com/news/detail.asp?id=100307

For the week ending August 20, 2005, Media Center PCs accounted for 43% of all desktop personal computers sold in the U.S. retail market, based on data from a sampling of U.S. retailers.

Table PCs are doing strong in vertical markets. Just struggling to find a leg in the consumer and business market. But give them time, just like with PDA:

http://www.internetnews.com/stats/article.php/3525706

The leading OS on PDAs, according to Gartner, is Microsoft (Quote, Chart), with a 46 percent market share, which was fuelled by 64 percent growth in the quarter vs. the same period last year.

.Sis

 

[mckmas8808]

I know we've touched on this already but how does it benefit the consumer if they own a cell-based DVD player, to buy a cell based camcorder or TV? If that is, in fact, your point.

That unfortuntely we will have to wait until a later date to fully understand.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Cell development cost

I have heard much higher numbers than that for the entire cell development cost (a couple billion) -- where did you get that number?

An IBM presentation. Should be available on web try google. This is just the devepment cost for the chip including design for STI. Another $325M was spent by Sony to help IBM refine a 65nm process. Will PS3 have 65nm CELL? Interesting question no?

 

[Phil]

I understand the concept of promoting the product family, but to me its not promotion, its "once you buy the first one we're going to make it more difficult to use anything but our products". Its like joining Amway. I'm sure there is other subtle 'coersion' in the CE industry, it just hasnt been as blatantly obvious (to me at least) with any other brand of anything ive ever owned.

Entirely subjective. It's in the interest of all companies to promote their own products and make it less easy for customers to switch to other products. It always has been that way. Best example is Microsoft and Windows. If you don't want the added experience of Sony products, don't buy them.

I know we've touched on this already but how does it benefit the consumer if they own a cell-based DVD player, to buy a cell based camcorder or TV? If that is, in fact, your point.

I, for one, have already posted on this, to which you merely replied to "it's a gimmick". I suggest you read it again and then come back before asking something that already has been answered. There's also a search function you can use - this has been debated and discussed before (you can find interviews and articles about CELL and Kutaragi talking about possibilities what CELL in the CE space could achieve).

 

[one]

I understand the concept of promoting the product family, but to me its not promotion, its "once you buy the first one we're going to make it more difficult to use anything but our products". Its like joining Amway. I'm sure there is other subtle 'coersion' in the CE industry, it just hasnt been as blatantly obvious (to me at least) with any other brand of anything ive ever owned.

Why do you always ignore product value per se and stick to the 'big picture'? For most casual users, it doesn't matter what the future plan of a company is. They buy things that just work. Also, there are people who buy new products no matter how much that cost.

Anyway, as I repeat it, subtle 'coersion' you want to find in CE industry is the most obvious in Microsoft Windows which is the software compatibility controlled by Microsoft. You see it in Win16 -> Win32 -> Win64 thunk, you see it in ActiveX, you see it in .NET, and you see it in Word .doc format.

Now, aside from this unproductive discussion about corporate strategy, it's interesting that Sony adopts Memstick/SD card/CompactFlash in PS3 while MS adopted strictly proprietary memory unit for Xbox 360 (and proprietary HDD, of course). SD card is just the de facto standard and it's proprietary too though it has more companies behind it (Matsushita, Sandisk, Toshiba).

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I know we've touched on this already but how does it benefit the consumer if they own a cell-based DVD player, to buy a cell based camcorder or TV? If that is, in fact, your point.

As these things don't exist yet who can say? It all depends on what Sony and Toshiba manage to do with the tech whether it offers something people want. And if not those people will go buy different brands.

 

[PC-Engine]

An IBM presentation. Should be available on web try google. This is just the devepment cost for the chip including design for STI. Another $325M was spent by Sony to help IBM refine a 65nm process. Will PS3 have 65nm CELL? Interesting question no?

65nm will come and go just like the others before it. PS3 will use it when it's ready and it's not exclusive to STI or CELL either.

 

[Vince]

PS3 will use it when it's ready and it's not exclusive to STI or CELL either.

You are in no position to make such a statement, how do you know the specific process technology developed under agreement at IBM's SRDC isn't restricted towards use affiliated with STI?

As an aside, you don't have to try and downplay everything Sony does. Seriously, it's ok...

 

[PC-Engine]

You are in no position to make such a statement, how do you know the specific process technology developed under agreement at IBM's SRDC isn't restricted towards use affiliated with STI?

Whoah Vince how you doing buddy? Anyway I was referring to 65nm process technology in general which many fab companies will have up and running next year including TMSC, UMC, Fujitsu, etc. You can bet MS will be shrinking both the GPU and CPU within two years.

As an aside, you don't have to try and downplay everything Sony does. Seriously, it's ok...

Well it's a nice counter balance to you praising SONY at every corner...

 

[darkblu]

Anyway, me being the HDTV freak i am, i think you guys should see this, it's pretty cool:

http://www.cornbread.org/FOTRCompare/index.html (take the mouse on and off the pictures to see the difference between the HD version and the DVD version)

wow, somebody is playng a bad joke. the dvd material looks damn undersampled. it was either intrelaced originally, or whoever grabbed it from the mpeg2 stream did not know what he was doing, or both. as a final option, the dvd may have been crappily mastered, which i doubt though. btw, what was that guy saying about 'bicubically scaling dvd to hd res'..?

 

[expletive]

I, for one, have already posted on this, to which you merely replied to "it's a gimmick". I suggest you read it again and then come back before asking something that already has been answered. There's also a search function you can use - this has been debated and discussed before (you can find interviews and articles about CELL and Kutaragi talking about possibilities what CELL in the CE space could achieve).

From what i can see my response was:

"Ive heard this before Phil but have yet to hear a real example of what in the world theyre talking about. I'm not saying there isnt one, just that no one has been able to produce one for me yet.

Shift in content distribution? Meaning what?"

And you paraphrased that into me saying "its a gimmick"? (did i say the gimmick thing somwhere else?)

All those responses you copied into your post, while nicely worded, still dont explain what is intrinsic about the architecture of the cell that will enable any of these things to happen.

For example, you quoted this piece:
"So, what’s going to happen is - Sony will start releasing products with Cell and a way to communicate; Wireless, Broadband, et al. People will buy them. People will want other electronic products. People and Salesman says, "Wow, If I buy the Sony product, it'll work with my other one and allow me to do this.. Or that... Easily." People buy more Sony products. Sony makes more money."

What does the cell have to do with it? Sony can implement this model today without the cell, and i think we've already covered that they are.

J

 

[mckmas8808]

Is that the real difference between DVD and HD-DVD? If so then wow.

 

[expletive]

As these things don't exist yet who can say? It all depends on what Sony and Toshiba manage to do with the tech whether it offers something people want. And if not those people will go buy different brands.

I just find it interesting that people are buying into the idea that the cell will somehow change the face and interactivity/interoperability of CE, yet have no idea, in practice, how.

Again, i'm not saying there isnt something groundbreaking on the horizon here, i just dont see it - and would like to.

J

 

[expletive]

Why do you always ignore product value per se and stick to the 'big picture'? For most casual users, it doesn't matter what the future plan of a company is. They buy things that just work. Also, there are people who buy new products no matter how much that cost.

Anyway, as I repeat it, subtle 'coersion' you want to find in CE industry is the most obvious in Microsoft Windows which is the software compatibility controlled by Microsoft. You see it in Win16 -> Win32 -> Win64 thunk, you see it in ActiveX, you see it in .NET, and you see it in Word .doc format.

Now, aside from this unproductive discussion about corporate strategy, it's interesting that Sony adopts Memstick/SD card/CompactFlash in PS3 while MS adopted strictly proprietary memory unit for Xbox 360 (and proprietary HDD, of course). SD card is just the de facto standard and it's proprietary too though it has more companies behind it (Matsushita, Sandisk, Toshiba).

Has sony said you will be able to save games on all of those memory formats? If so, thats cool and i give them credit. If theyre just allowing you to plug them in to view pics and listen to music, thats still cool but not as big a deal, and not any better or worse than the 360 mem card.

The proprietary HD thing i can udnerstand tho, if youre going to have one i think you need to have control over how that device is going to behave in the system for compatibility/performance's sake. Being a closed box system where some developers are going to use the HD for caching, etc, it should be standardized.

I agree most consumers dont care about strategy and for all my concerns here, i own a Sony minidv camcorder, PSP, and 2 memory stick duos.

J

 

[Shifty Geezer]

But we've covered this ground. I gave some examples of where I think Cell can be used earlier in this thread (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=574698&postcount=37) and interoperability would allow a device to share the resources of another. I posted an example on this too but don't know if it's in this thread or not. The example was a digital 3D rendering during an archaeology TV program. We had Teletext, and now digital text and info and our Red Button for digital content (in the UK). In the future it's likely this extra content will have expanded to included more media stuff, in the same way the web has expanded from just text and pictures to embedded media and interactive content. So on this TV programme there's the option to press your Red Button and have an interactive model of say Tutankhamun taken through a new scanning technology. On your 1:2 Cell TV you can interact with it at 15 fps. Connect up your Cell PS3 or Audio Decoder and the frame rate improves. Your Cell 1:4 HDR digital camcorder can encode a 720p+depth film at a rate of 1 minute processing for each five minutes of footage. Connect it to your TV and its Cell get's that up to 1 minute processing for 7 minutes film. With the PS3 switched on too you get 15 minutes of film encoded every minute.

At the moment it's hard to think of applications that can use that much power, but the same has been true of computing since it's inception, back to the days when it was theorised the world would only ever need 3 computers. People couldn't imagine then myriad of uses we have now or where it would lead. Interactive high definition 3D media is going to need massive processing at some point, such as powering your 3D holographic projector. Setting the ground work now is pretty forward thinking IMO (though maybe a little prematurely forward!)

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Has sony said you will be able to save games on all of those memory formats?

A quote from a Sony exec was something like 'of course you're going to want to be able to save to all those formats aren't you!' when asked about their inclusion. It's certainly heavily implied.