Xbox's future in Japan

[Richard]

Despite whatever you say about Japan, in terms of dollars spent on the gaming industry (whether it's the publisher side or gamer side of it ), the only country bigger is the US. I don't really see how Microsoft can "ignore" Japan, the notion is absurd.

Agreed, but Microsoft (and we) have to look at it on a ROI-basis. They could make more money in Japan, but if it requires 10x investment to get a 2x return then it's probably not worth it, unless the current investment is too small to begin with obviously.

I think both theories have merit. I do think there is a bias against Microsoft:either because it's an American company, or because of the hardware (size, colour, heat, whatever). I also think more Japanese directed games could help - IIRC sales picked up quite a bit when Tales of Vesperia was released for it, probably because it came out before the PS3 version.

In the end I agree with Rotmm and others that there's probably a better growth opportunity for Microsoft in the EU than in Japan. There's a lot more synergies there; Microsoft "just" needs to overcome the deep-rooted feeling that Playstation = games. They could start by not gauging us in the euro versus dollar conversion. Then they should court retailers which end up devoting 95% of their shelves to Playstation games (in some places PS2 games have more space than XBOX 360!). They don't call this "playstation land" for nothing.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Over nearly 6 years MS has sold 3% of their consoles in Japan. That's pretty easy to ignore. That's one holiday month in the US.

And as far as the 3 home consoles are concerned I don't know that Japan is 2nd only to the US anymore. If it is, it's a very distant 2nd with a lot of special attention required.

 

[joker454]

They could ignore Japan at launch with their next console, and focus on simultaneous USA + EU launch first. Then guage interest in Japan. If there is interest they could release it there the following year, but if no one there cares then don't bother releasing it at all and instead devert those resources to the EU.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't see how such a strategy could be executed. You need to have developers creating the software a year prior to launch. A decision to release XB3 in Japan made after gauging interest 6 months after release wouldn't see any Japanese developed games appearing until a year later, meaning an 18 month delay by which time any interest will have gone. The only other option would be to fund titles with the possibility of never releasing them (dating sims don't do so well in the rest of the world), or releasing in Japan with only the library of other territories which we know won't go down well. And would the like of Kojima bring creations to XB3 knowing there was no home market?

I suppose a more subtle approach to what you suggest is to treat Japan as normal, encourage devs to get on board, but don't sink money into marketing. The cost of shipping a few consoles won't break MS. They can see how the platform sells based on interest from Japanese gamers watching the rest of the world, no different to how you suggest MS should sit back, and then they can either follow up with a marketing campaign or quietly sneak out back. That would be seriously sucky for the Japanese developers who created launch titles, but I'm just strategising here, not moralising.

 

[joker454]

I don't see how such a strategy could be executed. You need to have developers creating the software a year prior to launch. A decision to release XB3 in Japan made after gauging interest 6 months after release wouldn't see any Japanese developed games appearing until a year later, meaning an 18 month delay by which time any interest will have gone. The only other option would be to fund titles with the possibility of never releasing them (dating sims don't do so well in the rest of the world), or releasing in Japan with only the library of other territories which we know won't go down well. And would the like of Kojima bring creations to XB3 knowing there was no home market?

I suppose a more subtle approach to what you suggest is to treat Japan as normal, encourage devs to get on board, but don't sink money into marketing. The cost of shipping a few consoles won't break MS. They can see how the platform sells based on interest from Japanese gamers watching the rest of the world, no different to how you suggest MS should sit back, and then they can either follow up with a marketing campaign or quietly sneak out back. That would be seriously sucky for the Japanese developers who created launch titles, but I'm just strategising here, not moralising.

Some clarification, I'm not actually suggesting they customize software for the Japanese market at all. They had that chance with the 360, Microsoft courted many Japanese developpers and offered the best development tools ever seen in a game console and it still didn't matter overall since many Japanese developers ignored it. I also don't think it makes any sense for Microsoft to hurl piles of money at all these developers to port their Japanese centric games over, that would cost a fortune and who knows if it would even pay off. So when it comes to customizing games for the Japanese market at this point I say don't bother. They succeeded in their main goal anyways which was to get the primary Japanese developers like Capcom, etc to work on the 360.

Instead I'm suggesting either launch or don't launch with whatever existing titles they have. Do a USA and EU launch, and if Japan cares then launch the same console and same games there. If they don't care then don't bother launching in Japan.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Okay, but doesn't everything point to no Japanese specific software == big flop? If MS aren't going to concern themselves with some Japan focussed library, surely it's better to not bother, and just open up import channels for individuals?

 

[joker454]

Okay, but doesn't everything point to no Japanese specific software == big flop? If MS aren't going to concern themselves with some Japan focussed library, surely it's better to not bother, and just open up import channels for individuals?

Well they tried courting them with an easy to dev box and that didn't work, and I don't think it makes sense to pay for ports. So at this point I don't see then excelling in Japan anytime soon so don't bother, instead if it looks like it could be another easy revenue stream then go for it, otherwise skip it. I don't think they should devote excessive time and money either way. They have the big Japanese developers now and that's a huge win because they would have lost many western gamers to the PS3 if they didn't have that. I just don't see much else to gain in Japan with any tactic that wouldn't be an endless money pit.

The 360/PS3 situation was the ideal situation for Japanese developers to support the 360. The 360 came out first, and some Japanese developers had trouble adjusting to new rendering techniques. On the one side you had the very difficult to dev for, no support and late to market PS3, and on the other side you hade the very easy to dev for fully supported-we'll-fly-you-over-to-Redmond-and-show-you-how-to-code-for-it shipped early 360. Microsoft literally couldn't have made it any easier for any dev on the planet, and in fact it may never be that easy again. In the end it didn't matter didly squat. What more can they possibly do? Japanese developers either want to support it or they don't, so I say wait and see with the next Xbox console. If Japanese developers really want it over there they will voice that to Microsoft, in which case go ahead and launch it. There's nothing else Microsoft can do, they can't put a gun to their heads and make them code for it, so now the ball is in Japanese developpers hands, it's up to them.

 

[Rotmm]

Okay, but doesn't everything point to no Japanese specific software == big flop?

What is the Xbox360 in Japan right now, if not a big flop. However, it's not just that it's a big flop in terms of sales that's the problem. Indeed, it has outsold the original Xbox, so could be considered a success in some quarters.

The real problem is the amount of marketing push, financial clout and developer support that has been poured into the region in an effort to make it a success. As others have said, a very poor return on investment.

Yet for some reason, MS are continuing to treat Japan as a major region for the 360. There are 10m Xbox 360's in EMEA (excluding the UK) and I'd guess the vast majority of those are in mainland Europe. Yet when Kinect was launched, no effort was made to include voice support for any of the major European languages (except English), yet with less than 1.5m Xbox 360's and maybe just as importantly a country well known for having small living spaces, there was Japanese language support on release.

The only explanation I can think of for MS spending so much for so little return is that they are afraid of upsetting the Japanese development commuinity. The problem is.... that was important 10 years ago, maybe even 5 years ago. Now with the cost of games development rising, Japanese developers need access to a platform that is strong in NA and EU far more than MS need access to the Japanese market.

This generation they have managed to make the Xbox brand synonymous with 'console' in the US, and also to a certain extent in the UK too. But as another poster here said, most of mainland Europe is still Playstation-land. Taking most of the resources spent on trying to win Japan and focusing them on Europe, pushing Xbox as a premier console brand, could mean big wins for MS.

And who knows, but ignoring Japan or treating the market as 3rd-tier, MS may actually become a sought-after brand. After all, Sony have long treated the EU market as the poor relation, 3rd class consumers, and that 'treat em mean' attitude has ensured that the EU is now Sony's strongest market.

 

[Arwin]

Microsoft still achieved an important goal in that Western gamers who appreciate Japanese games could still buy a 360 and not miss out. And Japanese developers soon realised that they could make more money if they targetted the West more. That has partly been a mixed blessing for some gamers, but certainly still pretty much a full blessing for Microsoft.

 

[Rotmm]

@Arwin,

Good point and agreed. It made sense to place significant focus on the Japanese market in 2005.

The trouble is that in 2011 and going forward it doesn't appear to make any sense at all.

 

[monkeyx]

Co-opt with a Japanese firm and release it under a different name, using a different package.

Good idea. They should work with SEGA to do just that. Label it in Japan as a new SEGA under cooperation with Microsoft.

 

[rabidrabbit]

And who knows, but ignoring Japan or treating the market as 3rd-tier, MS may actually become a sought-after brand. After all, Sony have long treated the EU market as the poor relation, 3rd class consumers, and that 'treat em mean' attitude has ensured that the EU is now Sony's strongest market.

I have to disagree about Sony treating the EU as "the poor relation".
They have already since PS2 games heavily supported localisation for different EU languages. For example, the Singstar brand has songs from other languages than English too, even songs in my native language Finnish. Most games that are aimed also to smaller kids have spoken language or at least subtitles translated, for example the Ratchet and Clank series on PS3.
No Nintendo or Xbox games that I know of, have such localisation.
Also, games no longer are released later in EU, as might have been the case some ten years ago.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Good idea. They should work with SEGA to do just that. Label it in Japan as a new SEGA under cooperation with Microsoft.

I think that would actually do it!

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I have to disagree about Sony treating the EU as "the poor relation".
They have already since PS2 games heavily supported localisation for different EU languages. For example, the Singstar brand has songs from other languages than English too, even songs in my native language Finnish. Most games that are aimed also to smaller kids have spoken language or at least subtitles translated, for example the Ratchet and Clank series on PS3.

While all that is nice for many people. Isn't it the Nordic distributor Nordisk Film that actually does all that and often it has had us to pay more than the official European price.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Nordsk Film is a distributor. They don't create content like game subtitles or choose what tracks to add to SingStore.

Sony definitely provides more for their EU customers than the other console companies at the moment. MS has for years been including services on Live for NA and neglecting Europe. And don't forget their audacity launching the original XB here something like 50% more expensive than the US. The EU may complain about Sony's prices, but as mentioned at other times when you factor in all the costs of Europe and tax and stuff, it's not necessarily Sony milking the EU for more. The only poor-treatment I can think of is generally having to wait later for regionalised content, especially annoying if you are happy to have the English content launching in NA months earlier. Oh, and launching hardware here last, but then we also get the bug-fixed versions as a result. Actually I'm not sure about Nintendo. I think they're pretty well spread too, although I don't think they offer the regionalised dialogues/subtitles that Sony does, but I could be well wrong on that. The only company I'd say treating the EU as the poor relation for sure is MS, who serve NA very well, pass on whatever low-cost English content to the Brits, and throw little scraps to the rest of Europe. MS invested heavily in Japan titles at the beginning of this gen which didn't get them that far. Perhaps if they had spent that money instead on regionalising content for Europe, they'd be doing better over here?

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Nordsk Film is a distributor. They don't create content like game subtitles or choose what tracks to add to SingStore.

Sony definitely provides more for their EU customers than the other console companies at the moment. MS has for years been including services on Live for NA and neglecting Europe. And don't forget their audacity launching the original XB here something like 50% more expensive than the US. The EU may complain about Sony's prices, but as mentioned at other times when you factor in all the costs of Europe and tax and stuff, it's not necessarily Sony milking the EU for more.

Nordisk Film does participate in the localisation process, but not nearly as much as I thought they did, so thanks for pointing that out. I wasn't complaining about the EU prices, but Finnish price compared to the European prices. Nordisk Film used to take somewhat significant cut. Now the prices seem to be pretty much the same over here, but for a long time the PS3 was about 15-20% more expensive here than in other non Nordic countries. I always thought that large part of that was due to them doing the localisation, but apparently not. Xbox has never had any Finnish extra, in meaningful amounts anyway.

I 100% agree with us getting the shaft on services from MS though.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I wasn't complaining about the EU prices, but Finnish price compared to the European prices.

You weren't complaining, but in the past it's been a complaint against Sony and why some feel the EU is viewed as the ugly step-sons of the console business. I don't think that's the case any more. We get some content and hardware later, but that also means we get bug-fixed versions too, so it's not all bad news.

 

[Richard]

You weren't complaining, but in the past it's been a complaint against Sony and why some feel the EU is viewed as the ugly step-sons of the console business. I don't think that's the case any more. We get some content and hardware later, but that also means we get bug-fixed versions too, so it's not all bad news.

Without BC *cough*.

Getting back to the topic though. Another supporter here for the Sega/MS Japan idea. Call it Dreamcast 2 and let the big [strike]bucks[/strike] yens rolls (I'm only 10% kidding btw).

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Changing the name won't change much. It's not that the xbox isn't selling because it's a xbox or because it's from MS. It's because the console doesn't offer what Japanese gamers want. Slapping a Sega sticker on it isn't going to change that. Besides, how much confidence will gamers have in Sega after the last 2 consoles they released?

 

[Rotmm]

Sony definitely provides more for their EU customers than the other console companies at the moment.

I am slightly confused by this comment. In fact, I'm confused by the whole post. It seems based a little in reality, but a lot in some kind of fantasyland.

Rather than quote/respond, I'll just make a few bullets.

1) Xbox Price; I have no idea if MS launched the 360 at 50% more in UK than NA as I never bought one. I do recall, however, that soon after launch they slashed the price. It was all over the press. I also recall that they offered refunds to everyone who had previously paid the higher price.

2) Xbox 360 Price: Microsoft have consistently had 4 different price points in the major (US, EU, UK, JPN) markets, taking into account currency differences and generally not profiting from the European markets. For example now the MSRP for a 250GB Xbox 360 is $299, €249, £205 which, once you take out sales taxes, if a very attractive comparison for the European markets.

3) Sony Price: Sony, with it's extensive EU/UK distribution network for electronic goods and all of the savings inherent in that, has consistently seen fit to insist the EU MSRP (including sales tax) mirrors the US MSRP (excluding sales tax). The same trick is being pulled with the Vita, which (and historically has) results in a 15-25% EU premium paid on untaxed price.

4) Product launches, refreshers. Microsoft has strived to have launches or rebrands in the major markets within a few days or weeks of one another. That's it.

5) Sony launches: Sony consistently leave the EU markets behind in product launches. The bug0fix argument is just laughable. I'm sure the millions of PS3 owners were more than happy to wait 6 months while the bugs were worked out of the DS3 and more than happy to be a dumping-ground for the excess inventory 6axis in the meantime.

6) Regional content: Nearly all MS published games have been released within days in NA/EU. Even Japanese developed games (when MS was still playing in that developer pool) are released in NA/EU at same time, due to building in localisation at start of development process. The same goes for XBLA titles. PSN users have long complained about having to wait.

7) Online Services: It is very true that MS offers far more services in NA than elsewhere. Of course, so does Sony. It's just that Sony don't offer anywhere near the level of services that MS do, so when that's compared to Europe it seems that they aren't being so miserly. The problem is that the NA media market is just so far advanced over other markets and MS over Live have really taken advantage of that. But still Microsoft managed to launch a video marketplace in the major European countries before media-company owning Sony. They now offer movie rentals in around 20 EU countries, which is still more than Sony I believe. How are Sony doing better? The music marketplace is also available in major EU markets.

...The only company I'd say treating the EU as the poor relation for sure is MS...

So by offering more than Sony to the EU market (or at least on par in some areas), at a fairer price to the EU customers and not forcing the EU to wait or using it as a sumping ground for 'old tech', MS are treating EU customers as the poor relatiion.

Meanwhile, Sony are heavily supporting their EU customers by waiting to release hardware and software 'so that it's bug-free', not using it's stance as one of the major media companies in the world to offer anything even slightly comprable to what it offers in NA in case those customers feel spoiled and charging a premium for every piece of hardware sold to ensure that those same EU customers feel even more special.

I can see your logic Shifty. No, really, I can.