Next Generation: Who will bring best software tools for Devs, Sony or Microsoft?

[ERP]

how much was this significant advantage in time?

Depends on the project, how big it is and how the files are organized.
The MS linker has never been very good with really big projects, and even relatively small changes are an issue when you do something 100x a day.

The advantage wasn't really manifest until fairly late in the cycle and there is the tool familiarity issue with PS3, the number of people who dislike the standalone debugger probably out weigh the few people who like it. Which is pretty much what triggered the move to the Vita model where everything is in Visual Studio and for the most part look just like the native tools.

 

[orangpelupa]

If Microsoft or Sony release SDK that easy to use for those that can't program at all. I'll be happy haha.

i already positively dreaming that Xbox 720 will support windows 8 store games so i can keep using Construct 2

btw Sony seems make their PS Mobile more open by removing the initial payment. But will PS4 support it.. and will my country be supported.. all are mysteries. Im not comfortable with creating fake US account to make a game.

 

[XpiderMX]

Confirmed at GDC.

Well, in some way, it proves that Microsoft dev tools (IDE in this case) are great, it is a win win for MS.

I know the topic is not about the IDE, but the IDE is part of the dev tools.

 

[jonabbey]

Depends on the project, how big it is and how the files are organized.
The MS linker has never been very good with really big projects, and even relatively small changes are an issue when you do something 100x a day.

The advantage wasn't really manifest until fairly late in the cycle and there is the tool familiarity issue with PS3, the number of people who dislike the standalone debugger probably out weigh the few people who like it. Which is pretty much what triggered the move to the Vita model where everything is in Visual Studio and for the most part look just like the native tools.

I assume PS3 development was typically done using a cross-compiler, so you could buy faster hardware to improve build times, yes?

Edit: Sorry, I know this is a pretty stupid thing to even ask. It wouldn't make any sense to have to do compilation on PS3 hardware, of course.

 

[ERP]

I assume PS3 development was typically done using a cross-compiler, so you could buy faster hardware to improve build times, yes?

Edit: Sorry, I know this is a pretty stupid thing to even ask. It wouldn't make any sense to have to do compilation on PS3 hardware, of course.

For most studios doing PS3 development Everything except the debugger was hosted in Visual Studio, it uses a collection of VS plugins, either a Sony provided compiler or GCC with a Sony provided linker.
The debugger is a separate exe, which some people like and some don't, there are probably more of the latter.
There is a Linux hosted version of the compiler/linker on PS3, which isn't commonly used, but I do know of at least one developer that uses it. The advantage being that linux has no limit on the number of CPU sockets for a license, and in general the File System tends to be faster which is a win when it comes to compilation and linking.

 

[Bagel seed]

I forgot all about this thread. Posting this here for relevance.

Programmer at RAD game tools:

 

[Bagel seed]

Avalanche dev chimes in

Quote:
PlayStation 4 currently beats Xbox One in terms of raw power and has a more mature developer environment, Avalanche Studios has told us.

The Just Cause creator is working with each next gen console right now, and says that in terms of pure specifications and working environment, PS4 is the preferable console. But with Xbox One’s cloud capabilities and further developer support coming, Sony can’t claim an early victory just yet.

We asked Avalanche’s chief technical officer Linus Blomberg how the two consoles compare. “It’s difficult to say, as it’s still early days when it comes to drivers,” he told us. “With each new driver release, performance increases dramatically in some areas. The PlayStation 4 environment is definitely more mature currently, so Microsoft has some catching up to do. But I’m not too concerned about that as they traditionally have been very good in that area. The specs on paper would favour the PS4 over the Xbox One in terms of raw power, but there are many other factors involved so we’ll just have to wait and see a bit longer before making that judgment.”

http://www.edge-online.com/news/ps4...crosoft-will-catch-up-says-avalanche-studios/

Those Kotaku rumors about MS being behind 6 months seem to have some basis. So are their tools just behind Sony's or is it that their tools are behind typical maturity at this stage in a console launch?

 

[ERP]

FWIW I've heard the same from 3rd party developers 92nd hand, as of right now the Sony tools are better.
The PS4 tools are certainly much better than the PS3 tools were at the same time in development, but it surprises me that MS are having difficulties. Last I checked they had a working x86 compiler/debugger in VS. If I had to guess with no actual knowledge of the situation, I'd start by looking at the complexities introduced by the Hypervisor.
But it could be stupid stuff like instability in the debugging stub, or profiling tools not working.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

When did MS get final silicon? That'd be the major limiting factor IMO. Everything else could be developed on x86, but the custom parts would need some form of drivers to fit into the API. Even then, the core of x86 development with full build and debug should be progressing from XB360 + PC development tools, which are extremely mature and robust. Maybe the VM aspect is muddling things? I need to read up how the 3 OSes are integrated!

 

[jonabbey]

If developers are responsible for orchestrating the SRAM and Move Engines, that could be an area that requires good tooling, maybe they're not quite there on those pieces yet.

 

[scf]

A couple of tweets regarding this from OpenGL guy working for AMD

 

[ERP]

If developers are responsible for orchestrating the SRAM and Move Engines, that could be an area that requires good tooling, maybe they're not quite there on those pieces yet.

While I agree managing the SRAM complicates development it's somewhat orthogonal to the issue of development tools though.

 

[Bagel seed]

Fabian mentioned that it's an issue not only affecting Xbone development but Win8/RT too. Maybe it's more of a project management, political or Windows ecosystem kind of problem.

 

[PowerThroughLove]

A couple of tweets regarding this from OpenGL guy working for AMD

Does anyone what specifically he may be referring too? Not fast enough to offset the lower bandwidth, or something to do more specifically with caching in GPU routines?

 

[(((interference)))]

When did MS get final silicon? That'd be the major limiting factor IMO. Everything else could be developed on x86, but the custom parts would need some form of drivers to fit into the API. Even then, the core of x86 development with full build and debug should be progressing from XB360 + PC development tools, which are extremely mature and robust. Maybe the VM aspect is muddling things? I need to read up how the 3 OSes are integrated!

They were apparently testing the beta kits back in November last year so sometime before that I guess?

I have heard that Durango was looking likely to slip - they also had engineers working on Yuma/Xbox TV (originally meant to be released at the same time as XB1) which would run the same System OS except on ARM (so a lot of additional work involved), perhaps that's why they put Yuma on the backburner, so they could reallocate engineering resources and ensure Durango met its launch schedule.

 

[Kb-Smoker]

A couple of tweets regarding this from OpenGL guy working for AMD

ANyone have an idea of what this guy is trying to say in these tweets?

How does eSram doesnt look fast enough = Easier Programming.

Or is he saying make games for xbone and port to pc/ps4 for easier programming.

 

[scf]

ANyone have an idea of what this guy is trying to say in these tweets?

How does eSram doesnt look fast enough = Easier Programming.

Or is he saying make games for xbone and port to pc/ps4 for easier programming.

I think "easier programming" should be treated as sarcasm

 

[Esrever]

ANyone have an idea of what this guy is trying to say in these tweets?

How does eSram doesnt look fast enough = Easier Programming.

Or is he saying make games for xbone and port to pc/ps4 for easier programming.

I think he might mean porting a game from one to ps4 will be easy because the ESRAM isn't fast enough to make it a bottleneck on the ps4 for a more direct port.

 

[AstoundingHolmes]

Could we get some context? What did g_truc say?

 

[Miksu]

I suppose Microsoft could use the same debugging model as they use with Windows Phone 8: The SDK installs few Hyper-V images and when the dev wants to debug an app using the emulator, Hyper-V kicks in and runs one of the images. The Visual Studio's debugger is able to communicate with the app running inside Hyper-V.

The Microsoft dev tools are great but there has been some recent SDK releases where they have been really late. The worst example is Windows Phone 8 where the first public release happened when the phones were already available. Though the WP 7.8 was even worse as the SDK was released after the OS.

The first Windows 8 SDK was released over a year before the OS itself was released, which was great. Though there were many breaking changes during that year, it allowed the devs to start creating apps very early.