xbox360 kiosk + CoD2 - FSAA - Aniso + Trilinear

[pixelbox]

hey pjv and fearsomepirate, what the hell are you doing here? take your fanboi crap and leave.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Cost is everything

At the same level of resolution and graphics, the common PC would struggle against a Gamecube.

Its hardly fair to compare the average PC to the highest end console if your discussing the technical merits of the two. Compare the average PC to the average games console or the highest end PC to the highest end games console.

Obviously not taking into account cost.

It is not useful to discuss technical merit when ignoring cost no? Every system is designed around cost target, even super. Best architecture is best (performance/cost).

From view of consumer, console is much superior to PC because at certain cost has superior graphics or to see another way, has same graphics at much lower cost.

Therefore comparing $400 console with $400 PC is fair.

 

[KimB]

No, because the PC is used for many things besides just games. So more important than the absolute cost of the PC is the marginal cost of upgrading it to play games.

For example, do you ever bother to wrap the cost of the TV into the cost of the console? What about a home theater system? Or a TV stand?

 

[fearsomepirate]

Nah, typically I'd say, "ah, it's only running at 720p," and conclude that the chip's power is maxing out.

Does anyone know if 360 will be able to do 1080i or 1080p? I'm just curious; I don't even have an HDTV.

 

[Powderkeg]

Yes, it can do both resolutions.



And the Console vs. PC debate is really old and stupid. I think the people who partake in these debates are more concerned about their penis size than the games, because the last thing you ever hear is how PC gaming is more fun than console gaming, or visa versa. It's all about the hardware, and no one gives a damn about the games.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Does anyone know if 360 will be able to do 1080i or 1080p? I'm just curious; I don't even have an HDTV.

It doesn't outpur 1080p to my knowledge.

However, that's not a problem since 99% of the 1080p TV's on the market use a 1080i input signal.

 

[KimB]

But that won't matter because games are going to be designed for 720p.

 

[scooby_dooby]

But that won't matter because games are going to be designed for 720p.

You're wrong.

720p is a minimum, just like 480p was last generation. That's not to say they won't design for higher resolution of the game can support it.

The Incredible Hulk, MVP Baseball 2005, FIFA 2006, NBA Live 2006, Tony Hawk Underground 1 & 2, Total Overdose, X-Men legends 1 & 2 are all good games that supported 720p last generation, despite 480i/p being the minimum.

 

[Powderkeg]

It doesn't outpur 1080p to my knowledge.

It can output 1080p, but it's not currently implemented because it's not seen as important by MS.

If MS were to see a need for it, they could put out an update on their game disks that would add that functionalty.

 

[Nemo80]

Then again...I've not seen pure billinear or trillinear filtering without AF since I played Unreal 1!
()

I've seen it, e.g. Ghost Recon 3 - on the Xbox 360, as well...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It can output 1080p, but it's not currently implemented because it's not seen as important by MS.

If MS were to see a need for it, they could put out an update on their game disks that would add that functionalty.

I remember this discussion from before. As I remember it, all the hardware supports 1080i. That's the limits of output chip they use. MS mentioned about 1080p and from the peculiarities of the quote, some took that to mean 1080p was supported. But from everything we have from MS and ATi, I see no reason to think the hardware in XB360 can render to and output a 1080p image; to support a 1080p output you would need hardware changes.

 

[Tap In]

I remember this discussion from before. As I remember it, all the hardware supports 1080i. That's the limits of output chip they use. MS mentioned about 1080p and from the peculiarities of the quote, some took that to mean 1080p was supported. But from everything we have from MS and ATi, I see no reason to think the hardware in XB360 can render to and output a 1080p image; to support a 1080p output you would need hardware changes.

I don't have a link handy Shifty, but I remember an MS mouthpiece saying, yes Xenos can render 1080p but that the output chip (scaler?) was implemented to output only up to 1080i.

As you say, I doubt any changes are happening to that unless MS release a future version with new scaler and output hardware. Allard has alluded to the fact that the product would evolve depending on demand, so drastic market (HD) changes could allow for all sorts of scenarios.

 

[ERP]

I remember this discussion from before. As I remember it, all the hardware supports 1080i. That's the limits of output chip they use. MS mentioned about 1080p and from the peculiarities of the quote, some took that to mean 1080p was supported. But from everything we have from MS and ATi, I see no reason to think the hardware in XB360 can render to and output a 1080p image; to support a 1080p output you would need hardware changes.

Since you can tile your framebuffer, it can render to pretty much any resolution you want, given memory limitations.

The issue is whether or not the scaler/output chip can turn that into a useful signal. And to be honest I have no idea, all I know is that MS claim the upconversion is of high quality.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Cost

No, because the PC is used for many things besides just games. So more important than the absolute cost of the PC is the marginal cost of upgrading it to play games.

For example, do you ever bother to wrap the cost of the TV into the cost of the console? What about a home theater system? Or a TV stand?

PJB comment was regarding graphics performance and technical comparison.

You make a good point about marginal cost but that only is good for computer owners who have good computer already no? For most cmoputers, only graphics card upgrade is not enough to get good graphics performance and if RAM needs to be upgraded, that reduces $ available for graphics card, and if CPU also needs to be upgraded then even less $ left for graphics card etc. So in the end, for most computer owners, they are replacing most components and maybe also getting new components like computer DVD drive, which all together cannot be done for $400 with satisfactory results.

As for Xbox360 output, there is no HD digital output for high end monitor.

Q: All those connections (composite, component, s-video and VGA) have one thing in common: they carry the video signal in an analog format. What about digital connections such DVI or HDMI? Will there be A/V packs with DVI and/or HDMI connections? If not, will you consider offering that in the future?

Todd Holmdahl: Xbox 360 will support HD component video output, which is compatible with nearly every HD-ready TV on the market today. We’re poised to hit the sweet spot of the HD market at launch and as the market matures, and we will provide an HDMI for our customers when it makes sense. The reality is, you don’t need HDMI for HD gaming.

You can upscale any game resolution to any available output resolution so may be same for DVD viewing.

The game developer can create their game in any resolution. The consumer can request any output resolution (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i). The Xbox 360’s advanced video scaler will scale the game’s native resolution to the end consumer’s requested resolution with extremely high quality output.

No 1080P:

[/QUOTE]Xbox 360 does not support 1080p at this time. It’s an incremental improvement at an astronomical expense, and we don’t see consumers clamoring for 1080p TVs yet. We will continue evaluate the market and deliver the capability when and if customers want it.
[/QUOTE]

 

[pjbliverpool]

You don't know what the X360 version could run at. The fact is there's no point to leave the framerate uncapped. I suppose the most that might happen if you did is get some frame tearing. Turn VSYNC on with a 60 Hz monitor, and now your Xfire X1800XT XX Edition X still runs the game at 60 fps.

I'm not saying Son of XGPU is more powerful than 2 X1800XT's; I'm just saying that you can't say "ah, it's only running at 60fps" and conclude that the chip's power is maxing out.

True, but my only point was that the claim that the PC version was running at 30fps vs the X360 version at 60fps was BS.

The PC version at max detail and X360 image quality (assumed to be 720p + 4xFSAA/8xAF - which frankly, is unlikey) can probably exceed 100fps by the time the X360 is available to the public.

One thing is certain, 100fps average is more than enough for a "60fps game" so if the X360 version has less than equal graphics plus 4xFSAA/8xAF at 720p then its not the equal of the PC version.

 

[pjbliverpool]

PJB comment was regarding graphics performance and technical comparison.

You make a good point about marginal cost but that only is good for computer owners who have good computer already no? For most cmoputers, only graphics card upgrade is not enough to get good graphics performance and if RAM needs to be upgraded, that reduces $ available for graphics card, and if CPU also needs to be upgraded then even less $ left for graphics card etc. So in the end, for most computer owners, they are replacing most components and maybe also getting new components like computer DVD drive, which all together cannot be done for $400 with satisfactory results.

As for Xbox360 output, there is no HD digital output for high end monitor.



You can upscale any game resolution to any available output resolution so may be same for DVD viewing.



No 1080P:

Xbox 360 does not support 1080p at this time. It’s an incremental improvement at an astronomical expense, and we don’t see consumers clamoring for 1080p TVs yet. We will continue evaluate the market and deliver the capability when and if customers want it.

Ok, lets say im rich and the odd thousand here and there doesn't matter to me. I want the most powerful gaming system in the world, what do I buy?

Exactly. So please stop telling people who want to buy PC's that they are wrong because PC's are too expensive. Yes PC's are expensive, just like sports cars are expensive, but if you want the best, you pay for it. Why is that a problem?

 

[AlNom]

Ok, lets say im rich and the odd thousand here and there doesn't matter to me. I want the most powerful gaming system in the world, what do I buy?

Exactly. So please stop telling people who want to buy PC's that they are wrong because PC's are too expensive. Yes PC's are expensive, just like sports cars are expensive, but if you want the best, you pay for it. Why is that a problem?

If I were a developer, I would want the majority to experience the game at its best visual quality. The X360 is a much more economical means to that end. More people would have a much better chance at experiencing the game at such high detail.

100fps at CoD2 at max details by the end of this month you say? Is that a locked fps or are you counting the multitude of drops common with most games? How much are you going to have to spend just to brag?

 

[KimB]

100fps at CoD2 at max details by the end of this month you say? Is that a locked fps or are you counting the multitude of drops common with most games? How much are you going to have to spend just to brag?

I believe he was talking about average fps, since he also stated:

One thing is certain, 100fps average is more than enough for a "60fps game"

 

[AlNom]

I believe he was talking about average fps, since he also stated:

Average is hardly indicative of a consistent frame rate or the mode of a set of numbers.

edit:
take the average of: 30,40,50,70,80,90
take the average of: 60,60,60,60,60,60

This "average" stuff is being extensively discussed elsewhere on the forum, so I'll stop here.

 

[KimB]

Well, duh, but you can expect that most of the time the framerate will be above 60 fps if the average is 100 fps.