Xbox One (Durango) Technical hardware investigation

[Betanumerical]

Xenos never came to PC markets, though.

Fair point. The leaks mention a fair number of southern island improvements though doesn't they? years before it was meant to exist. Why do these improvements get the okay, but these new ones get hidden?. It doesn't make sense to hide some improvements but allow others. They would be handicapping there developers majorly if they removed information that would beneficial.

Aren't all the developers under NDA anyway?. Why would AMD worry about the new information leaking through someone who isn't meant to speak about it anyway.

 

[Kaotik]

Most if not all of those improvements mentioned already are on the PC markets already, too (Bonaire, Oland I think? Kabini etc)?

 

[Betanumerical]

Most if not all of those improvements mentioned already are on the PC markets already, too (Bonaire, Oland I think? Kabini etc)?

But they would not have been when the developer documentation went out. Which is why I find it surprising that people are suggesting that only the details of the architecture which is not out yet would be removed from the documentation. Was GCN even out most of the documentation would have been shipped?.

 

[Dave Baumann]

When AMD talks about "GCN" that refers to the high level architectural layout of the graphics system; i.e. it indicates a major change from the older VLIW processing (as found in XBOX 360 and other GPU's/APU's up until Southern Islands/Kabini) to a scalar processing organisation. At a high level GCN is the fundamental basis for the graphics architecture going forward, however the IP development of GCN is a continuum and it will continue to evolved with lower level features, functionalities and efficiencies. So, when you look at HD 7790 compared to, say, HD 7770 is there a fundamental high level architecture change that says 7790 is different? No, absolutely not, it is clearly from the "GCN" stable, but it does have an advancement of architectural capabilities from all the other HD 7000 series around it.

Xenos is a bit of a red herring, but also a good case in point. Xenos was easy to pinpoint as something "different" because it was the first time a unified shader architecture was implemented anywhere, however, you can follow the lineage of Xenos->R600->R700->Evergreen->Northern Islands to see that at the high level Xenos set the fundamental processing path for quite a number of generations while the IP and capabilities of the architecture continued to evolve (all the way through from DX9 to DX11).

 

[expletive]

When AMD talks about "GCN" that refers to the high level architectural layout of the graphics system; i.e. it indicates a major change from the older VLIW processing (as found in XBOX 360 and other GPU's/APU's up until Southern Islands/Kabini) to a scalar processing organisation. At a high level GCN is the fundamental basis for the graphics architecture going forward, however the IP development of GCN is a continuum and it will continue to evolved with lower level features, functionalities and efficiencies. So, when you look at HD 7790 compared to, say, HD 7770 is there a fundamental high level architecture change that says 7790 is different? No, absolutely not, it is clearly from the "GCN" stable, but it does have an advancement of architectural capabilities from all the other HD 7000 series around it.

Is the "2013" column the types of things you're referring to that AMD feels set it (the XBO GPU) apart as a new GPU architecture and more advanced than its recent predecessors? I think I in the XBO hardware panel the memory coherency was mentioned but dont remember the others. Does the XBO GPU incorporate anything in the 2014 column?

 

[BeyondTed]

Xenos is a bit of a red herring, but also a good case in point. Xenos was easy to pinpoint as something "different" because it was the first time a unified shader architecture was implemented anywhere, however, you can follow the lineage of Xenos->R600->R700->Evergreen->Northern Islands to see that at the high level Xenos set the fundamental processing path for quite a number of generations while the IP and capabilities of the architecture continued to evolve (all the way through from DX9 to DX11).

This is along the lines of some of my posts/questions.

In a way I have been asking if anything like the "Xenos->R600->R700->Evergreen->Northern Islands" might be kicked off again with the Xbox One GPU.

So we wait to see if anything like that is the case. I would not be surprised as I have argued that MS's interest in custom Silicon design has increased since Xenos (groups, people, equipment/tools, facilities, research publications).

But it is also possible that Xbox One arrives after the big change (being GCN) and in the midst of refinement instead.

 

[Kaotik]

When AMD talks about "GCN" that refers to the high level architectural layout of the graphics system; i.e. it indicates a major change from the older VLIW processing (as found in XBOX 360 and other GPU's/APU's up until Southern Islands/Kabini) to a scalar processing organisation. At a high level GCN is the fundamental basis for the graphics architecture going forward, however the IP development of GCN is a continuum and it will continue to evolved with lower level features, functionalities and efficiencies. So, when you look at HD 7790 compared to, say, HD 7770 is there a fundamental high level architecture change that says 7790 is different? No, absolutely not, it is clearly from the "GCN" stable, but it does have an advancement of architectural capabilities from all the other HD 7000 series around it.

Xenos is a bit of a red herring, but also a good case in point. Xenos was easy to pinpoint as something "different" because it was the first time a unified shader architecture was implemented anywhere, however, you can follow the lineage of Xenos->R600->R700->Evergreen->Northern Islands to see that at the high level Xenos set the fundamental processing path for quite a number of generations while the IP and capabilities of the architecture continued to evolve (all the way through from DX9 to DX11).

Wasn't Xenos Vec4+Scalar, though, not VLIW? (in that sense, more similar to R3xx-5xx which used Vec3+Scalar for PS and Vec4+Scalar for VS if my memory serves me right?)

 

[Dave Baumann]

But it is also possible that Xbox One arrives after the big change (being GCN) and in the midst of refinement instead.

XBOX 360 was the first product utilising an architctural philosopy that spanned many subsequet product generations. GCN as an architectural philosophy has already seen two IP revisions productised and available.

Wasn't Xenos Vec4+Scalar, though, not VLIW?

That is still VLIW. The change at the ALU level between Xenos and R600 just allowed more flexible packing of the Vec4 unit with compiler improvements.

 

[BeyondTed]

XBOX 360 was the first product utilising an architctural philosopy that spanned many subsequet product generations. GCN as an architectural philosophy has already seen two IP revisions productised and available.

So we can expect GCN to be around awhile before 'major' changes?

As next Radeon series (VI or whatever it is called) likely to be more 'minor' GCN revisions, not a '2.0' or 'major' rev?

 

[pjbliverpool]

Have a think what the baseline IP level could/would be....

Can you give us an idea of how we catagorise and differentiate those different IP levels? Assuming Tahity/Pitcairn etc.. represent the baseline GCN IP, how many other IP levels are currently on the market? What products are they represented by and how would we classify them (GCN 1.0, 1.1, 1.2 etc...)? Also what are the actual differences between the IP levels?

Only talking about released products of course.

 

[Kaotik]

Can you give us an idea of how we catagorise and differentiate those different IP levels? Assuming Tahity/Pitcairn etc.. represent the baseline GCN IP, how many other IP levels are currently on the market? What products are they represented by and how would we classify them (GCN 1.0, 1.1, 1.2 etc...)? Also what are the actual differences between the IP levels?

Only talking about released products of course.

Currently there's Tahiti/Pitcairn/Cape Verde -level and Oland/Bonaire(/Kabini) -level, if I haven't understood anything wrong

 

[kalelovil]

Currently there's Tahiti/Pitcairn/Cape Verde -level and Oland/Bonaire(/Kabini) -level, if I haven't understood anything wrong

Oland is GCN 1.0.

Tahiti could be considered somewhat separate from other GCN 1.0 implementations (ECC memory controller, much higher relative DP performance, probably some other differences).

 

[Kaotik]

Oland is GCN 1.0.

Tahiti could be considered somewhat separate from other GCN 1.0 implementations (ECC memory controller, much higher relative DP performance, probably some other differences).

Is it? Ok, I somehow understood it's same level as Bonaire
Tahiti differences to the rest isn't something I'd count as "IP level difference" since it's pretty much just out of the necessity of top professional hardware requirements

 

[Tchock]

What I got from Dave is that GCN as a family would probably share similar efficiencies at this scale... especially when pertaining to a console environment.

I think GCN only starts to have a bit of an issue on the PC with >1280 units (so far to speculate) on Tahiti where either driver overhead or ALU scaling drops quite a bit.

 

[expletive]

Can you give us an idea of how we catagorise and differentiate those different IP levels? Assuming Tahity/Pitcairn etc.. represent the baseline GCN IP, how many other IP levels are currently on the market? What products are they represented by and how would we classify them (GCN 1.0, 1.1, 1.2 etc...)? Also what are the actual differences between the IP levels?

Only talking about released products of course.

I think the picture i posted from the Bonaire review might give a hint

 

[Cyan]

A new -and very brief, like my post, I gotta run off to bed- article simply called "The Power of Xbox One" mentions these things:

Advanced Graphical Fidelity
A More Powerful Kinect
Gameplay Enhanced by the Cloud
The Possibilities with an Enhanced Second Screen

http://www.xboxer360.com/news/the-power-of-xbox-one/

 

[AzBat]

A new -and very brief, like my post, I gotta run off to bed- article simply called "The Power of Xbox One" mentions these things:

Advanced Graphical Fidelity
A More Powerful Kinect
Gameplay Enhanced by the Cloud
The Possibilities with an Enhanced Second Screen

http://www.xboxer360.com/news/the-power-of-xbox-one/

Same stuff covered in the IGN & Gameinfirmer articles after the Comic-con panel ended.

Tommy McClain

 

[BeyondTed]

Samsung: 3Gb and 6Gb (LP)DDR3 Memory Modules

Awhile back there was a series of discussions on 12GB memory and how silly 6Gb chips sounded...

...well... ...here you go: http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/memory...ps_to_Enable_Smartphones_with_3GB_of_RAM.html

Samsung’s 6Gb LPDDR3 Chips to Enable Smartphones with 3GB of RAM. Samsung Begins Production of 6Gb LPDDR3 Chips

Now don't misunderstand at all, I do not expect any such chips in Xbox One. Not saying that and not predicting that.

I just thought it was really funny to read that article this morning. Apologies in advance if you don't share the humor.



And for the bandwidth, speed and symmetry: No problem:

The Samsung 3GB LPDDR3 mobile DRAM uses six of the industry’s smallest 20nm 4Gb LPDDR3 chips operating at 2133Mb/s, in a symmetrical structure of two sets of three chips stacked in a single package only 0.8mm high. Samsung’s 3GB LPDDR3 DRAM connects with a mobile application processor using two symmetrical data transfer channels, each connected to a 1.5GB storage part. Though asymmetric data flow can cause sharp performance dips at certain settings, the symmetrical structure avoids such issues, while maximizing system level performance.

6Gb? Who knew?



For some more humor: Quick, someone should phone MS and tell them we found a solution for them!

 

[Cjail]

Awhile back there was a series of discussions on 12GB memory and how silly 6Gb chips sounded...

I don't remember anyone saying that 6Gb chips sounded silly.
Personally I said that Micron doesn't have them and MS is using Micron.

P.S.
ATM Samsung doesn't show those chips on its catalogue anyway.

 

[BeyondTed]

I don't remember anyone saying that 6Gb chips sounded silly.

Ok, perhaps not the best/most accurate way to say it. But certainly there was much discussion about the possibility and a good measure of resistance. Much of the discussions were of the "no" and "that is crazy" variety. (Talking more in general of 12GB as opposed to the specific 6Gb module availability.)

Personally I said that Micron doesn't have them and MS is using Micron.

Right. Micron is on the Wired Xbox One photos. I didn't suggest MS would be going this route. I said it was humorous (the timing) of a 6Gb module availability discussion and then shortly afterward the Samsung 6Gb production start press release.

P.S.
ATM Samsung doesn't show those chips on its catalogue anyway.

It is future, production on 6Gb just started.



Now when the right parts are available I am sure MS will use Samsung again:

http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/system/microsoft/xbox360/motherboard/memory.jpg

Or other suitable vendors at the time:

http://m.eet.com/media/1128301/267148-pry_elitememory2.jpg