Xbox One (Durango) Technical hardware investigation

[Grall]

Probably for heat concerns,the PSU been internal will generate more heat.

That statement does not follow logically. It won't generate more heat just because its PSU is internal. You might say that PSU being internal, it would generate more heat inside the casing for example, but since we don't know how much heat either of these devices generate it could still theoretically be possible for xbone to generate more heat than PS4, even with its internal PSU.

Also, with PS3, the PSU sits downstream of the cooler for the main guts, and thus does not contribute to the heat load inside the box, and even though the PSU is cooled by pre-heated air, it still probably runs cooler than the external power brick of the 360 (and presumably, xbone) since you can't have (large) vents on a power brick, or objects could end up sticking into them, electrocuting people and pets alike. Chances are that PS4's PSU will also sit downstream of the main heatsink, so PSU waste heat would not be an issue in that case either.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I've seen fanless 400 W PSUs for silent PCs, so technically it's not heat or noise that's the limiting factor, but cost. It'll be cheaper to put a cheap PSU outside the case than an expensive one inside. You can also manage different PSUs for different world power supplies more easily with an external PSU (need a PSU capable of handling different input ACs for internal PSUs).

 

[Deleted member 11852]

You can also manage different PSUs for different world power supplies more easily with an external PSU (need a PSU capable of handling different input ACs for internal PSUs).

A single box tolerant of a 110-250v AC input simplifies the manufacturing supply chain and inventory management, particularly in Europe and Asia. All you need is a different physical wall plug/cable for each region and if you want to simplify it further still, do what Apple do with some products and include a modular connector design with all of the options in the box so it can work anywhere.

At some point, cost savings for simplifying these things surpasses the costs of utilising more flexible components and bundling extra bits. Where that is, though, is hard to pinpoint.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Also, with PS3, the PSU sits downstream of the cooler for the main guts, and thus does not contribute to the heat load inside the box,

Only if you disregard the laws of thermodynamics. Just because heated air is blown outside of the console doesn't negate the heat that an internal PSU unavoidably dissipates inside the device, adding to heat generated by the CPU, GPU, GDDR5, HDD and optical drive.

There is a reason that passively-cooled external PSUs are a popular choice for a lot of devices, including just about every laptop ever made even when they were friggin enormous

and even though the PSU is cooled by pre-heated air, it still probably runs cooler than the external power brick of the 360

It may do, but an external PSU is designed to be passively cooled in any given temperature environment. The internal PS3 PSU may run cooler than the external 360 PSU but unless you're worried about energy efficiency or the ambient temperature in which both device's operate, it really doesn't matter.

Placing the PSU within a device will mean that some of the heat will, unavoidably, dissipate inside the box in which you are trying to vent as much heat as powerful outside, usually with non-silent fans. For the record, I have faith that Sony know what they are doing here. My European launch (23 March 2007) PlayStation 3 has been rock solid. I've taken it apart a few times to clean it out but it's good. Equally my MacMini (2.6Ghz Octocore i7, 16Gb RAM, dual-drive RAID array HDDs) runs silent all the time. It can do done with the right design and a little know how.

 

[3dcgi]

Upclock or not, I wonder how many millions you guys spent on the console.

With the unique/exciting architecture of the Xbox One I can already imagine the m(b)illions Microsoft spent on R&D to create the architecture.

That's why I can't wait to see it in action. :smile:

In that sense, there is no match this generation, imho. The more powerful PS4 is like the original Xbox, rather boring architecture-wise, basically a laptop with an A10 APU.

The fact that the design, while nice and compact, reminds me of a laptop where you can lift the lid and see the screen doesn't help either.

The PS4 is like an A10 except it has a different CPU architecture, different and more powerful GPU architecture, and some custom features you don't understand yet. So yeah, just like an A10. Surely the ESRAM makes the XBO seem more different than a PC, but let's not get carried away with over simplifications.

 

[COPS N RAPPERS]

Not really. You need to separate the DRM checking from the actual use case of cloud computing. Games that were already going to use the cloud were always going to need an online connection anyway, that's why I found talking about the check pointless for most people.

I'm expecting the first few titles that are cloud based for online gaming (or support it for extra purposes) to still continue, though a lot of cloud works as just more software support. if a game is made for only cloud then i'm sure it might just end up being a digital only title.

With the new regulations Microsoft has accepted, I do see the possibility of tech making further compromises because of independence.

 

[dagamer]

I'm expecting the first few titles that are cloud based for online gaming (or support it for extra purposes) to still continue, though a lot of cloud works as just more software support. if a game is made for only cloud then i'm sure it might just end up being a digital only title.

with the new regulations, I do see the possibility of tech making further compromises because of independence.

Games won't be digital only because while many people have reliable broadband speeds with low latency, many also have caps which make downloading a 30GB game untenable.

 

[COPS N RAPPERS]

Games won't be digital only because while many people have reliable broadband speeds with low latency, many also have caps which make downloading a 30GB game untenable.

Not all games but some of them could be, and even still, Downloading large titles has always been up to the discretion of the gamer. rules and details could be laid out to gamers beforehand.

Also, I'm not sure if a digital Cloud game would get to be that high, but if they do I think they would be able to let you keep whatever you have downloaded and continue whenever possible.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Games won't be digital only because while many people have reliable broadband speeds with low latency, many also have caps which make downloading a 30GB game untenable.

There are download only games on PS3 and XB360 already, so why is it hard to believe there'll be DD only games for next-gen consoles? Not the CODs of this world, but anything else is a candidate. If Ms want to encourage internet access, they could, for example, release a Halo game as download only, tying it to fancy cloud computing and using it as a flagship title to help coax resistant XB fans online.

 

[COPS N RAPPERS]

Well, up until a few days ago they could have been prepared to make halo go solely on the basis of cloud and digital only. the new regulations ensures that disc based gamers can have their freedom, in which case disc based gaming makes up a big percentage of Microsoft's sales.

With the new regulations it does quell the amount of "Cloud only" games that could be made, but the support for it will now always be there if a developer wants to venture into that; it just won't be sold on shelves i'm thinking.

Which leads me to my other subject. with now full Offline independence for disc based gamers, it does leave room to believe that the console now has to carry the full burden of handling games. which also does leave room for the theory of upping the clock speeds. The big Heatskink and big case with many vents, and now with full offline independence, it does leave it open to those possibilities.

 

[BRiT]

Nope, instead of having the game needing to handle all things locally I see disclaimers stating "online required" on the game boxes instead.

 

[COPS N RAPPERS]

Nope, instead of having the game needing to handle all things locally I see disclaimers stating "online required" on the game boxes instead.

I think it'll have to be more specific than that for it to work. that kind of disclaimer would confuse anyone for online authentication or for registering requirements, simple stuff. In order for Cloud gaming to be useful it needs the fastest connection.

It would be like system requirements for PC games.

 

[AlphaWolf]

I think it'll have to be more specific than that for it to work. that kind of disclaimer would confuse anyone for online authentication or for registering requirements, simple stuff. In order for Cloud gaming to be useful it needs the fastest connection.

It would be like system requirements for PC games.

Broadband Required is nothing like a list of requirements like they have for PC games. The people that don't understand what broadband required means can ask the clerk or read the small print.

 

[Grall]

Only if you disregard the laws of thermodynamics.

Thermodynamics schmermodynamics. The amount of heat leaking into the casing from an internal PSU is completely negligible, seeing as even the full heatload of a properly designed (IE, reasonably efficient) PSU is not particularly great, and nearly every single watt of that heat will be blowing straight out the back.

There is a reason that passively-cooled external PSUs are a popular choice for a lot of devices, including just about every laptop ever made even when they were friggin enormous

Nonsense. Power bricks for laptops is to reduce size and weight for a portable device; these things have internal batteries for a reason, so that you don't HAVE to carry with you a power supply all the time. It has nothing to do with reducing internally generated heat. May I remind you that laptops had external power supplies long before heat ever became much of a concern in a laptop...?

 

[COPS N RAPPERS]

Broadband Required is nothing like a list of requirements like they have for PC games. The people that don't understand what broadband required means can ask the clerk or read the small print.

yeah but cloud gaming will be forcing some big numbers for connection speeds. I can see some developers using it but i know a majority of disc based games will automatically use it just as an option, now that will become choice.

It could be done but it would only amount to more subdividing of gamers. It was one thing getting gamers to all support kinect, it will be an other to get gamers to meet higher internet speeds as requirements keep growing. with all that kind of subdividing being done; so to will be the amount of developers shearing in the same belief.

 

[Tap In]

yeah but cloud gaming will be forcing some big numbers for connection speeds. I can see some developers using it but i know a majority of disc based games will automatically use it just as an option, now that will become choice.

It could be done but it would only amount to more subdividing of gamers. It was one thing getting gamers to all support kinect, it will be an other to get gamers to meet higher internet speeds as requirements keep growing. with all that kind of subdividing being done; so to will be the amount of developers shearing in the same belief.

suggested specs from Ms are 1.5mbs down

 

[bkilian]

Equally my MacMini (2.6Ghz Octocore i7, 16Gb RAM, dual-drive RAID array HDDs) runs silent all the time. It can do done with the right design and a little know how.

There is no 8 core i7 Mac mini. Quad core is the highest it goes. But yes, the cooling solution on the Mac mini is quite impressive.

 

[COPS N RAPPERS]

suggested specs from Ms are 1.5mbs down

that was just on the basis of getting optimal performance out of xbox one's new interface. they weren't taking into account of what developers plan to use; the answer is they can't really know because of the freedom that will be given to developers.

the theory of limitless cloud usage would bring about the idea of raising the new standards.

 

[AlphaWolf]

that was just on the basis of getting optimal performance out of xbox one's new interface. they weren't taking into account of what developers plan to use; the answer is they can't really know because of the freedom that will be given to developers.

the theory of limitless cloud usage would bring about the idea of raising the new standards.

You can be sure they are much more likely to give the developers a laundry list of requirements (limits) than they are consumers.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Thermodynamics schmermodynamics.

I predict I am not going to get an answer that makes any technical sense.

The amount of heat leaking into the casing from an internal PSU is completely negligible, seeing as even the full heatload of a properly designed (IE, reasonably efficient) PSU is not particularly great, and nearly every single watt of that heat will be blowing straight out the back.

Negligible on what scale? If you having to deploy active cooling in a closed box, choosing to place the PSU internally will not result in a negligible amount of heat. Firstly you lose a volume of space that otherwise can be used for air flow. Secondly, although PSUs are designed to vent heat out of the exhaust, they do get warm/hot. Try running your PS3 with the top off for an hour then put your hand on the side of the PSU. Feel that heat? That's going into the box.

Nonsense. Power bricks for laptops is to reduce size and weight for a portable device; gs have internal batteries for a reason, so that you don't HAVE to carry with you a power supply all the time.

Having a second brick increases the size and weight because now you have two separate items required to meet electrical standards, and the cable to connect them. Not to mention that unless you carry a laptop to use for a few hours between charging, you're probably carrying the PSU with you

It has nothing to do with reducing internally generated heat. May I remind you that laptops had external power supplies long before heat ever became much of a concern in a laptop...?

You will have to remind me because I can't remember a time when heat was never a concern for laptops? In the early days, low powered mobile variants of chips weren't even a thing unless you're talking those space qualified items for military and aerospace applications. Laptops were using desktop parts for years and having to cool them in spacial volume far smaller than they were designed for.