Xbox One (Durango) Technical hardware investigation

[AlNom]

Here is a really stupid question. Would it easier to enable bc for original Xbox titles on Durango considering they are both x86 architecture? Just crossed my mind.

It's another question if MS would be willing to pay nVidia.

 

[DJ12]

Why would they need to pay nvidia?

I know it had an nvidia gpu but surely theres nothing in that beyond what directx was doing or is doing now that means nvidia will be entitled to something from ms enabling bc.

 

[XpiderMX]

Why would they need to pay nvidia?

I know it had an nvidia gpu but surely theres nothing in that beyond what directx was doing or is doing now that means nvidia will be entitled to something from ms enabling bc.

Microsoft pay to nvidia for BC:

Some details have trickled out, courtesy of Wedbush Morgan Securities analyst Michael Pachter. In a recent research note, Pachter confirms that Microsoft "has agreed to pay a small royalty to Nvidia to allow the Xbox 360's ATI chipset to emulate the performance of the Nvidia chipset in reading certain Xbox games."

Apparently, for Xbox games that are written in a single layer (which MS management believes to be most of the Xbox library) the emulation should be pretty smooth. The smaller percentage of Xbox titles that are written in multiple layers will require "patches" (separate emulation programs) in order to work. Pachter says that Microsoft currently plans to sell the 360 with these patches already pre-loaded on the included 20GB hard drive. It is also conceivable that any additional patches for other Xbox games could be easily downloaded over Xbox Live.

 

[Exophase]

The current market demand for XBox games has got to be close to nothing, I doubt MS will want to spend any money on this at all.

And it's not a trivial problem even if you have x86, just look at the state of XBox emulation on PCs..

 

[dagamer]

The current market demand for XBox games has got to be close to nothing, I doubt MS will want to spend any money on this at all.

And it's not a trivial problem even if you have x86, just look at the state of XBox emulation on PCs..

I think it's just general lack of interest. Many of the original Xbox games that you'd want to emulate are already PC games: Halo, Halo 2, KotoR, Doom 3, Half-Life 2, Grand Theft Auto, etc... The PS2 and Gamecube have FAR more unique games which never appeared on PC, many of them Japanese in origin where PC gaming isn't a known quantity.

 

[GrimThorne]

Pachter says that Microsoft currently plans to sell the 360 with these patches already pre-loaded on the included 20GB hard drive. It is also conceivable that any additional patches for other Xbox games could be easily downloaded over Xbox Live.

20GB hard drive? Xpider how old is this information that you've posted? It's sounds like it was from an article in 2005.

 

[onQ]

20GB hard drive? Xpider how old is this information that you've posted? It's sounds like it was from an article in 2005.

I think he was just using that to show that MS paid Nvidia so that the Xbox 360 could Emulate the Xbox GPU.

 

[(((interference)))]

I think you need to re-read the document. From the linked pic:

That roadmap was actually never seriously considered, it was one of many competing vision docs and some of the concepts were integrated into the final product plan.

This is also why the codename is Durango and not Yukon.

And the RAM type definitely seems to be DDR3, it's what's in the kits and what's specified in the documentation.

 

[Grall]

And the RAM type definitely seems to be DDR3, it's what's in the kits and what's specified in the documentation.

I feel vindicated.

 

[Averagejoe]

What I think is just crazy is how everyone is assuming, just because Microsoft may not have a more powerful console than Sony, that this somehow instantly means Microsoft isn't interested in performance in games. I don't get it, can't a company have a different peak performance target without being accused of not really caring about games? Did the original Xbox being more powerful than the PS2 mean that Microsoft had a stronger commitment to games than Sony did at the time?

I think we all know better than that.

Not at all even with weaker spec games are games,MS change its stance probably based on Wii performance,and loss profits over the years.

Regardless of power the wii won this generation,MS loss some billion even that it manage to turn things around,maybe they just want to profit from go now,so they are focusing more on gaming with peripherals than cheer graphics,they have loss 2 generation in a row with powerful hardware so they try something else is how i see it.

The comparison between the xbox and PS2 is not a fair one,the PS2 arrived 20 months before the xbox,thats almost 2 years,is not like MS beat sony in power fair and square the same year the PS2 came out.

 

[aladin]

That instinct feeling? Perfectly fits the bill?

I mean Microsoft for some years now have shifted their focus from core games to other form of entertainment and the vgleaks specs fits that.

What I think is just crazy is how everyone is assuming, just because Microsoft may not have a more powerful console than Sony, that this somehow instantly means Microsoft isn't interested in performance in games. I don't get it, can't a company have a different peak performance target without being accused of not really caring about games? Did the original Xbox being more powerful than the PS2 mean that Microsoft had a stronger commitment to games than Sony did at the time?

I think we all know better than that.

Original xbox and the controller were big, fat and not pretty but they had shown good intentions as far as gaming console is concerned. I think all gamers would be happy if that would be the case with 720 as well.

However since 720 will be released this year. I would think they should have new IP or revisiting some of older ones.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Not at all even with weaker spec games are games,MS change its stance probably based on Wii performance,and loss profits over the years.

Regardless of power the wii won this generation,

I think that's a premature conclusion. This gen isn't over and XB360 and PS3 can still hit a very low price point. Sales of another 20 million for either worldwide over the next two years doesn't seem implausible, surpassing Wii given its general stall. It's certainly pretty close, and PS360 combined has outsold Wii considerably, showing greater specs were important to many.

 

[GrimThorne]

I mean Microsoft for some years now have shifted their focus from core games to other form of entertainment and the vgleaks specs fits that.

VGleaks? The folks that are now relying on analysis from Pastebin to back up their earlier extrapolations? Basically admitting that they were missing an ENTIRE APU from their specs? The specs that were supposed to be current and actually reflect what was in the beta kits?

After that bit of nonsense you wouldn't catch me hanging my speculative hat on anything VGleaks puts out there. Better for you to wait until final silicon is revealed before starting that diatribe.

 

[(((interference)))]

Excuse me, what?

VGleaks? The folks that are now relying on analysis from Pastebin to back up their earlier extrapolations? Basically admitting that they were missing an ENTIRE APU from their specs? The specs that were supposed to be current and actually reflect what was in the beta kits?

After that bit of nonsense you wouldn't catch me hanging my speculative hat on anything VGleaks puts out there. Better for you to wait until final silicon is revealed before starting that diatribe.

I can't believe vgleak didn't report on the second APU - and where's the ray tracing unit?...

 

[GrimThorne]

Excuse me, what?



I can't believe vgleak didn't report on the second APU - and where's the ray tracing unit?...

Geek humor, wonderful.

But you'll have to ask their analysis guy from Pastebin where the all of that stuff is hidden. And that remains to be the weirdest posting I've seen since the whole speculation about Durango began. It began with a rant directed at NeoGaf than an actual information scoop.

I'm still not exactly sure what VGleaks was trying to prove with that, if only to walk back from their earlier extrapolation. What other reason could it be? Were they trying to troll everyone?

It's all nonsense to me now.

 

[Betanumerical]

Geek humor, wonderful.

But you'll have to ask their analysis guy from Pastebin where the all of that stuff is hidden. And that remains to be the weirdest posting I've seen since the whole speculation about Durango began. It began with a rant directed at NeoGaf than an actual information scoop.

I'm still not exactly sure what VGleaks was trying to prove with that, if only to walk back from their earlier extrapolation. What other reason could it be? Were they trying to troll everyone?

It's all nonsense to me now.

They were just posting information/rumors that other people started, they had nothing to do with the paste bin leaks, there information comes from actual documents that include white papers and conference stuff.

Vgleaks is much more believable then the paste bin stuff, the paste bin stuff is obvious hogwash but hits are hits.

 

[(((interference)))]

But you'll have to ask their analysis guy from Pastebin where the all of that stuff is hidden. And that remains to be the weirdest posting I've seen since the whole speculation about Durango began. It began with a rant directed at NeoGaf than an actual information scoop.

While vgleaks may now have very well just turned into another rumour aggregator with no actual info, the detailed specs they released are genuine since they are copy and pasted from Xbox ATG whitepapers given to devs (which DaE got his hands on).

 

[dobwal]

VGleaks? The folks that are now relying on analysis from Pastebin to back up their earlier extrapolations? Basically admitting that they were missing an ENTIRE APU from their specs? The specs that were supposed to be current and actually reflect what was in the beta kits?

After that bit of nonsense you wouldn't catch me hanging my speculative hat on anything VGleaks puts out there. Better for you to wait until final silicon is revealed before starting that diatribe.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a second apu. And I wouldn't be surprised if that second apu isn't present in the dev kits.

How do you simultaneously services multiple users with Durango without forcing devs to accommodate that type of environment? Do you limit the number of CUs and CPUs so that devs only have access to a portion of Durango's main APU? Or do you degrade the gaming experience depending on the number of users using the system?

The second SOC in Yukon was never describe as being available for gaming. It was described as a system SOC. I can see this SOC mostly there to service Yukon streaming and other secondary features. A SOC akin to Tegra 3 thats meant to drive streaming and BluRay playback which doesn't need x86/AMD gpu like performance. Decoupling Yukon's secondary functions and moving them onto a second SOC makes sense. Devs can make full use of the main APU undisturbed.

The problem with Yukon's design is there is a limit on how many users it can serve. Maybe that's where Durango design comes in the picture. Stripping out the 360 CPUs and second APU and dropping them in a media extender allows limitless buildout by buying cheap extenders versus placing additional consoles in your home. It also provides an additional revenue stream for Microsoft.

I say all this because I doubt MS simply abandoned their whole vision and came up with a simpler design that they are going to charge an additional $200 then what was initially planned. Tweaking their vision makes more sense than wholesale abandonment. Dropping an extender with a second apu and 360 BC into the main would probably drive up the main sku BOM. But it produces a product that basically provides two consoles while driving the 720, RT and 360 ecosystem into homes with one sku. It's more readily marketable since it looks like more in the box.

Under that scenario Durango dev kits wouldnt need a second SOC as the RT and 360 development tools are already available and allow MS to hide their strategy.

 

[(((interference)))]

As mentioned before, Yukon and that roadmap was only one of many competing visions so they didn't 'simply abandon their whole vision' since it was never their whole vision.

 

[Betanumerical]

The second SOC in Yukon was never describe as being available for gaming. It was described as a system SOC. I can see this SOC mostly there to service Yukon streaming and other secondary features. A SOC akin to Tegra 3 thats meant to drive streaming and BluRay playback which doesn't need x86/AMD gpu like performance. Decoupling Yukon's secondary functions and moving them onto a second SOC makes sense. Devs can make full use of the main APU undisturbed.

So it needs to support all of the same things that the PS4 does in low power mode / without disturbing the main hardware, maybe its using the exact same thing, the ATI/AMD video decoding blocks and the small arm CPU that is latched onto there APU's.