Xbox 360 HDMI Capable

[Guden Oden]

Could be MS is trying to avoid complaints about whether or not an HDMI cable should be included in the premium bundle.

That theory is weak in the extreme and sounds much like an explanation after the fact.

What information are a lot of you basing 'digital support is unlikely' on?

The FACT microsoft has neither announced, nor even shown, a digital video cable for the machine. Not even the development system has digital out to my knowledge.

Granted, it's not conclusive proof, but hell, a DVI/HDMI cable is NOT expensive to make. I see no reason for MS to have to 'wait for the right time' or whatever to introduce one, or even announce one. Makes no sense.

 

[Ty]

The BB website is just screwed up, they have a picture of the component cables with the VGA cable description. The fact that other sites have the hdmi cable as well as the detailed description of an hdmi cable leads me to believe that it truly is hdmi and not just component.

So you think they used the wrong picture?

If so, does the description refer to the same model # that is also in the picture?

 

[SirTendeth]

Marketing often makes no sense. And even though the manufactured cost wouldn’t be much more- it would still be more.

But I agree with the "explanation after the fact" statement.

But its the typical, someone of marginal credibility said it could do it-
so lets find a way that they could be right, thing.

 

[wco81]

The way they're pricing accessories, why not come out with an HDMI cable at $50 to gouge the people who got money for plasmas?

Because a simple cable probably would not do it.

Didn't an ATI guy at E3 disown the output chip because people were wondering why it didn't have HDMI or 1080p support like the PS3? He took pains to point out they didn't do the output chip.

 

[Guden Oden]

"Disowned" sounds a little over-dramatic I'd say. I don't think ATi needs to do any damage control or such over this, and really, component IS good enough, particulary for the main res of the console (720P). I don't mind at all that x360 has analog video out, because my TV only has ONE digital in, so if I want both x360 and PS3, I'd have to put one of them on analog anyway.

I think the situation is similar for most of us.

 

[expletive]

That theory is weak in the extreme and sounds much like an explanation after the fact.

No need to be rude about it, i'm just trying to make sense of a confusing situation.

The FACT microsoft has neither announced, nor even shown, a digital video cable for the machine. Not even the development system has digital out to my knowledge.

Granted, it's not conclusive proof, but hell, a DVI/HDMI cable is NOT expensive to make. I see no reason for MS to have to 'wait for the right time' or whatever to introduce one, or even announce one. Makes no sense.

Microsoft not announcing anything officially is not a fact, its a lack of facts. The facts as i understand them now are:

1. There are several sites listing an HDMI cable for the Xbox 360. So they are either all correct or all incorrect.
2. The initial thread started had an MS rep stating it would support HDMI.
3. Pelican just told me on the phone that they DO have an HDMI cable for the Xbox 360 and it will be on sale after the 360 launches. The gentleman i spoke to was in the QA/QC department and he said he had one right in front of him. It will also have an optical out.

So it appears this mystery may be solved. I'm sure this is good news to some, and bad news to others, so all of you respond accordingly.

 

[Ty]

3. Pelican just told me on the phone that they DO have an HDMI cable for the Xbox 360 and it will be on sale after the 360 launches. The gentleman i spoke to was in the QA/QC department and he said he had one right in front of him. It will also have an optical out.

Interesting.

Did you ask him what the model # was (to compare it against the BestBuy picture and Description)? Then again, he said it will be available AFTER the x360 launches so maybe it's NOT the one on the BB site (I'm assuming that's available already and not just preorder).

Did you ask him out many connectors there were to plug into the TV? If it's 5 (3 + 2 L/R audtio) then it's component.

Did you ask him if there was some sort of ADC (Analog-to-Digital Conversion) going on in the cable?

 

[Guden Oden]

No need to be rude about it, i'm just trying to make sense of a confusing situation.

Sorry, it wasn't my intent to be rude. My apologies if you took it personal.

Microsoft not announcing anything officially is not a fact, its a lack of facts.

Well it IS a fact they haven't announced anything, because they haven't. It isn't a fact they WON'T announce anything in the future, or that the machine is incapable of digital out of course, but then again I never claimed something like that either.

1. There are several sites listing an HDMI cable for the Xbox 360.

And according to some other poster, they show a picture of a component cable whilst claiming it to be a HDMI connection.

So they are either all correct or all incorrect.

Not neccessarily all correct or incorrect, as since at least one site clearly shows a picture of a component cable where the package itself says component cable, not HDMI.

2. The initial thread started had an MS rep stating it would support HDMI.

Though stating it in vague words. It would be my guess that most HDTV sets sold today support either DVI or HDMI already along with component (and often, VGA too), if the hardware supports that kind of output I see no reason why there should not be a cable at launch that can transmit it to a TV/other display device.

It is a pure speculative GUESS of mine, that MS felt HDMI wasn't important for x360 since they wouldn't include HDDVD drives in their product, and the only real reason to have HDMI video is for HDCP copy protection. So perhaps they decided to save a nickle or two by cutting HDMI output, and the point they'll include it (like that MS rep stated) will be when they revise x360 hardware with a high-density optical drive of some sort. But this is just a guess of course.

3. Pelican just told me on the phone that they DO have an HDMI cable for the Xbox 360 and it will be on sale after the 360 launches.

Cool, if true, Pelican isn't really a well-known manufacturer of peripherals. Actually I've never heard of them before this thread. Yet even if it is true, that does not mean the x360 itself supports digital video out; the cable might include an ADC/TMDS transmitter (though that's a bit of a stretch too I admit).

I'm sure this is good news to some, and bad news to others

Not sure why anyone would feel it to be BAD news. As I've already stated though, I've no intention of using DVI/HDMI on x360 anyway since my TV has only 1 digital in, and I need that one to watch HDCP-enabled bluray movies with my PS3. Besides, why buy a digital cable when I get a component "for free" in the box, and at 720P, quality will not look (noticeably) different I think.

 

[expletive]

Interesting.

Did you ask him what the model # was (to compare it against the BestBuy picture and Description)? Then again, he said it will be available AFTER the x360 launches so maybe it's NOT the one on the BB site (I'm assuming that's available already and not just preorder).

Did you ask him out many connectors there were to plug into the TV? If it's 5 (3 + 2 L/R audtio) then it's component.

Did you ask him if there was some sort of ADC (Analog-to-Digital Conversion) going on in the cable?

No i didnt get into all those details but i did ask him to confirm that this was an HDMI cable NOT a component cable. I told him the reason i was asking because early specualtion was that the 360 would not be able to output HDMI. He confirmed it was HDMI and he said he had one right there with him. He was in the QA/QC department so i'm not sure he would know all the technical details.

I may call back on monday and see if i can get some more info on it. If you call the main number on : http://www.pelicanacc.com/ press number 4, then press the number for the sales department to get someone helpful. The customer service folks probably wont know wht youre talking about.

And according to some other poster, they show a picture of a component cable whilst claiming it to be a HDMI connection.

Yes but sometimes bestbuy sticks 'stand-in' pics for things when they dont have the actual picture for it yet. Amazon and J and R chose to go the 'no picture available yet' instead.

Cool, if true, Pelican isn't really a well-known manufacturer of peripherals. Actually I've never heard of them before this thread. Yet even if it is true, that does not mean the x360 itself supports digital video out; the cable might include an ADC/TMDS transmitter (though that's a bit of a stretch too I admit).

I beilieve Pelican has actually been around for quite a long time and has been making console peripherals for at least a couple of generations.

Well there would have to be something special in the cable becuase it would need to convert to digital as well as HDCP. THats a tall order for a $19.99 cable.

Besides, why buy a digital cable when I get a component "for free" in the box, and at 720P, quality will not look (noticeably) different I think.

Probably not. Technically i think the VGA cable (RGBHV) would provide the highest image quality of all these solutions.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

On a related, but marginally off topic, note, can someone please explain a bit about HDCP and DMI (l-b)? I was speaking with a friend yesterday who has an HD ready LCD TV at 720p with DMI, plus Samsung progressive scan DVD player. I'll check it out when I get chance to see what sort of job it does. We were talking about next gen and media PCs HD movies etc., and he had no idea about the HDCP protocol. I explained the general idea from what I've picked up here about HDCP being needed to view HD content, but I'm confused how it works over DMI, along with talk of DMI convertors and stuff.

An HD movie on HDDVD or BluRay is going to need HDCP to view it at HD res, right? This comes as standard with HDCP but not DMI, right? So if he plugs a HD movie player (in this case PS3) into his HDTV, he'll only be seeing 480p images because the TV is DMI, not HDMI, right? For 720p content on a HDD, as long as it's not DRM's it'll play at 720p. If it is DRM'd then it'll need HDMI to transmit at 720p. This is the curfuffle MS had with BRD in that it isn't required to be copiable to HDD. So for XB360 to function as a MCE extender playing HDCP enabled HD movies from a central PC, it's going to need an HDMI cable, right? And an HDCP TV with HDMI input for the HDCP too, right? What about all those HDTV's without HDMI? Are they able to show HDCP movies? IF so, what's the point of HDMI again?

 

[expletive]

On a related, but marginally off topic, note, can someone please explain a bit about HDCP and DMI (l-b)? I was speaking with a friend yesterday who has an HD ready LCD TV at 720p with DMI, plus Samsung progressive scan DVD player. I'll check it out when I get chance to see what sort of job it does. We were talking about next gen and media PCs HD movies etc., and he had no idea about the HDCP protocol. I explained the general idea from what I've picked up here about HDCP being needed to view HD content, but I'm confused how it works over DMI, along with talk of DMI convertors and stuff.

An HD movie on HDDVD or BluRay is going to need HDCP to view it at HD res, right? This comes as standard with HDCP but not DMI, right? So if he plugs a HD movie player (in this case PS3) into his HDTV, he'll only be seeing 480p images because the TV is DMI, not HDMI, right? For 720p content on a HDD, as long as it's not DRM's it'll play at 720p. If it is DRM'd then it'll need HDMI to transmit at 720p. This is the curfuffle MS had with BRD in that it isn't required to be copiable to HDD. So for XB360 to function as a MCE extender playing HDCP enabled HD movies from a central PC, it's going to need an HDMI cable, right? And an HDCP TV with HDMI input for the HDCP too, right? What about all those HDTV's without HDMI? Are they able to show HDCP movies? IF so, what's the point of HDMI again?

I think you mean DVI instead of DMI so i'm going to go answer based on that assumption.

Theres 3 flavors of DVI connectors- DVI-D, DVI-I and DVI-A. Here's a good link that provides a quick overview:

http://www.datapro.net/techinfo/dvi_info.html

There is also an HDMI conector which only comes in one flavor.

The purpose of HDCP was to secure a piracy-free link between the source device and the display device (or recording device if applciable). The Source device sends out an HDCP 'handshake' signal to the display and the display responds with an HDCP response. Now there is a confirmed secure connection between the 2.

There were DVI cables and connectors in existence before there was HDCP. So what ended up happening was that there were DVI with and without HDCP capabilities on the market. You could play a non hdcp source on an HDCP enable display, but not vice-versa. There was and still is confusion around DVI becuase of this so you have to know if your DVI connector on both ends have HDCP or not.

HDMI was developed later and adds several features:

1. Bandwidth-HDMI can has greater badnwidth than DVI and will be able to send higher resolutions and uncompressed signals over the cable. I believe its around 4Gbps which means 1080p uncompressed as well as 8 streams of 192khz PCM audio simultaneously. I believe it also supports the transmission of remote control signals.
2. Bandwidth aside, with HDMI 1.2 it can also transmit 7.1 uncompressed audio as part of the spec.
3. Its always HDCP. Theres no mix now with HDMI, all connectors on all sides are HDCP enabled.

An HD movie on HDDVD or BluRay is going to need HDCP to view it at HD res, right? This comes as standard with HDCP but not DMI, right?

Yes thats right. To view it in HD resolutions youll need an HDCP capable digital interface, either HDMI or DVI-D with HDCP.

So if he plugs a HD movie player (in this case PS3) into his HDTV, he'll only be seeing 480p images because the TV is DMI, not HDMI, right?

I think you mean DVI-D here so ill asnwer based on that. If his TV has a DVI connector and it is HDCP enabled(which plenty are), he could be able to BUY an HDMI-DVI cable and get full HD resolutions. IF it does not support HDCP, then he may not be able to get ANY video over that connection at all, 480p or otherwise.

For 720p content on a HDD, as long as it's not DRM's it'll play at 720p. If it is DRM'd then it'll need HDMI to transmit at 720p. This is the curfuffle MS had with BRD in that it isn't required to be copiable to HDD. So for XB360 to function as a MCE extender playing HDCP enabled HD movies from a central PC, it's going to need an HDMI cable, right? And an HDCP TV with HDMI input for the HDCP too, right? What about all those HDTV's without HDMI? Are they able to show HDCP movies? IF so, what's the point of HDMI again?

Yes non-DRM'd HD content will play no problem.

Yes in order for the 360 to play DRM'd HD content that would require an HDCP connection (either HDMI or DVI-D/HDCP). I dont know what the details are of the MMC spec (which is waht HD-DVD has that will eventually allow Win MCE to stream HD-DVDs to 360s and other set-top extenders, BR does not support this) so I dont want to suppose here.

EDIT:let me clarify here, i beluieve that WMVDH discs will play from MCE to 360 over component so my statement above may require some tweaking. ANyone have any more details on that?

HDTVs without HDMI or DVI/HDCP may not be able to display BR but frmo what i remember reading HD-DVD may work. If it doesnt work with component, it will need either an HDMI connection or a DVI-D/HDCP connection.

See above for point of HDMI. Its a huge bandwidith cable/connector that guarentees HDCP, and high res audio, remote control.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Thanks for that expletive. Is the XB360 going to need HDCP hardware to transmit HDCP material to an HDCP TV then? Can this be handled in software, or without the hardware already present (is it? Haven't heard about it) streamed content from MCE won't work, surely. Unless they bypass the protocol when displaying content from XB360, which gives pirates an easy workaround of HDCP, which defeats the point of it, no?

 

[expletive]

Thanks for that expletive. Is the XB360 going to need HDCP hardware to transmit HDCP material to an HDCP TV then? Can this be handled in software, or without the hardware already present (is it? Haven't heard about it) streamed content from MCE won't work, surely. Unless they bypass the protocol when displaying content from XB360, which gives pirates an easy workaround of HDCP, which defeats the point of it, no?

Good question and really at the crux of this thread. Since there is only 2 connections that transmit HDCP encoded video (HDMI, DVI/HDCP, there is also firewire but that is very niche and not really germain to this discussion), and they both innately require hardware to exist, so there is no 'software' solution. So, imo, it breaks down like this:

1. Does the 360 have the innate hardware to transmit an HDMI digital signal (which explicitly includes HDCP since its HDMI), and if not, could it be added via a cable with some sort of smaller breakout box to include said hardware?
2. What would be the cost of a robust cable solution if the innate capability doesnt already exist?
3. Or are we all doomed (well, all 360 owners) to line up for a new SKU which can do it if there is a reuirement for such a connection to play certain media types?

Given MS' strategy for the 360 as a game machine and a deliverer of HD content (initially outside of the HD optical disc), imo, it would be a miscalculation to not be able to leverage the early 360 installed base to play HD content that would require a digital HDCP-compliant connection.

What we dont know (or at least I dont know) is if Vista, or future updates of MCE, will require the extenders (i.e. 360s and stand alone hardware set-top MCE extenders) to have HDCP compliant connections -at the extender itself- to play "DRM'd" HD content streamed to those devices. I also dont know the details of MMC (managed media copy, in HD-DVD spec, not in BR spec and the key to intel/MS choosing HD-DVD) and what is or is not allowed under that spec.

So while no HDMI may not severely limit the 360 based on those other factors (Vista, MCE, MMC, etc), a confirmed HDMI solution now, makes all the other pieces irrelevant.

 

[scooby_dooby]

It will have HDMI for the simple fact that MS are not complete morons. Just because they haven't announced anything (although Holmdahl practically did confirm it) doesn't mean squat.

They will have an HDMI cable, and they've already figured out the technical details, this is not rocket science here, they're not idiots.

 

[MfA]

I believe the majority of TVs only have one HDMI or DVI connection, though two is becoming more common place. However, I do have several component connections. So if you take the number of households with an HDTV and divide out those with an available HDMI connection, then further reduce that number by those who will buy an Xbox 360, I think the amount is dreadfully small.

TI is sampling HDMI switch ICs, and Im sure they are not the only ones ... if the 360 does have HDMI I predict prices on switches will plummet.

 

[DemoCoder]

It will have HDMI for the simple fact that MS are not complete morons. Just because they haven't announced anything (although Holmdahl practically did confirm it) doesn't mean squat.

They will have an HDMI cable, and they've already figured out the technical details, this is not rocket science here, they're not idiots.

Unfortunately, HDMI isn't a simple matter of making a cable with the right pinouts. If the XB360 doesn't have a TMDS transmitter chip, than it doesn't, and a true HDMI cable is IMPOSSIBLE.

If HDMI was possible, MS would have already announced a SKU for a HDMI cable package. There is no reason whatsoever for them not to make one, or announce an upcoming one. I bet with 95% probability that the XB360 output port does not contain digital signals except for audio, and that the XB360 does not have a TMDS transmitter nor HDCP support. Without this support, no cable is possible.

 

[Sis]

TI is sampling HDMI switch ICs, and Im sure they are not the only ones ... if the 360 does have HDMI I predict prices on switches will plummet.

True. My point was merely one of market share and was probably a weak one at that. I'm at a loss as to why they would not offer HDMI from the start. It would have allowed for the 720p upconversion of DVDs...

.Sis

 

[ban25]

Yes but sometimes bestbuy sticks 'stand-in' pics for things when they dont have the actual picture for it yet. Amazon and J and R chose to go the 'no picture available yet' instead.

As has already been pointed out on this thread, Best Buy describes the cable as an 'HDMI Component Cable' and they show a picture of a component cable. It's likely they have mistaken HDMI for HD in the description on the site.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Unfortunately, HDMI isn't a simple matter of making a cable with the right pinouts. If the XB360 doesn't have a TMDS transmitter chip, than it doesn't, and a true HDMI cable is IMPOSSIBLE.

If HDMI was possible, MS would have already announced a SKU for a HDMI cable package. There is no reason whatsoever for them not to make one, or announce an upcoming one. I bet with 95% probability that the XB360 output port does not contain digital signals except for audio, and that the XB360 does not have a TMDS transmitter nor HDCP support. Without this support, no cable is possible.

So in all likelihood XB360 as an MCE extender won't allow HD movies to be shown on HDTVs? Do normal MCE PCs/Extenders have HDMI? Doesn't the XB360 have a proprietary video out into which any number of different connections can be attached, same as say PS2? In which case what do you base a guess of lack of presence of digital output from XB360?

It seems pretty odd that MS would advertise an HD future and MCE extender capabilities, but not include the necessary hardware, but I guess stranger things have happened. A later SKU would fit the bill, but that's no comfort to existing owners expecting to use the advertised MCE capabilities when HD discs become available.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Unfortunately, HDMI isn't a simple matter of making a cable with the right pinouts. If the XB360 doesn't have a TMDS transmitter chip, than it doesn't, and a true HDMI cable is IMPOSSIBLE.

And what reason do you have to believe the X360 does not have this chip?

As far as them not announcing, Todd Holmdahl confirmed it is coming, so it's not like they have said nothing. MS has shows through their actions that they realize they can not change the SKU on people, and they've built a modular system than can be upgraded. To think they didn't appl this same approach to the HDM/DVI capabilities defies logic. They will not make anyone buy a new SKU simply to enable DVI output.

Maybe they are not releasing it simply because it's beginning to be accessory overload at this point, and they also have enough on their plate right now. We'll see a second round of peripherals I'm sure, with a 40GB HDD, larger memory card, web cam and DVI cable.