Windows 7

WMP is a free download == $0. Basic price - $0 = basic price.

WMP is a free download for owners of a legitimate Windows installation.

WMP development is funded by the sale of Windows licenses.

Windows N versions should cost about 20-30$ less than versions with WMP, so businesses do not have to pay for functionality they do not need. And providers of other Media Players can compete on price.
 
WMP is a free download for owners of a legitimate Windows installation.

WMP development is funded by the sale of Windows licenses.

Windows N versions should cost about 20-30$ less than versions with WMP, so businesses do not have to pay for functionality they do not need. And providers of other Media Players can compete on price.

You must be kidding me about the 20~30$ price. Heck, there are countless free media players out there for everyone to download. If others can provide free media players, why can't Microsoft?

By this logic, why just pick on media player? How about the built-in calculator? Should Microsoft provide a "calulator-free version" for other calculator vendors to compete? How about Notepad? MS Paint?
 
WMP is a free download for owners of a legitimate Windows installation.

WMP development is funded by the sale of Windows licenses.

Windows N versions should cost about 20-30$ less than versions with WMP, so businesses do not have to pay for functionality they do not need. And providers of other Media Players can compete on price.

Well, it's exactly because WMP development is funded by Windows that you can't assign a monetary value to removing WMP from Windows. This becomes clear once you also assign a monetary value to Windows Mail, Movie Maker, Messenger, and all other applications that were, at one time or another, bundled with the OS and funded by Windows licenses. If you did that you'd arrive at a negative price point for Windows (which would be excellent heh).

Once the EU found (right or wrong) that Microsoft was abusing its monopolist position in the OS market by bundling product aimed at another market (Media Player), the sensible course of action would be to make the N editions mandatory in the EU, not as an alternative priced the same; which is exactly what South Korea did with the K editions I believe.

On the general topic of how many and which product editions Windows 7 should have it's arguably better for both Microsoft and the consumers that there's at least two versions: one for the home and another for businesses. This product tiering has existed ever since Windows NT 3.1 shipped "alongside" Windows 3.1 in the market. It has continued to Win9x/WinNT4 and then Me/Windows2000 and finally XP Home/Professional. There are significant usage model differences between those computers used for a corporation and those used for inviduals. I do believe they have to be supersets though, like W7 will be and like XP was, otherwise you're forced to have a third-edition just for those people that need both (not to mention confuse customers because it's not trivial to know which features are missing).

So IMHO, there's not much benefit in having just one edition of Windows. Apple can do it because they don't make their profits from the OS but by bundling the OS with their high-margins hardware. Microsoft's core business IS Windows (and Office). A more apt comparison is how Apple doesn't have a single mac hardware but instead has the mini, imac, mac pro, etc. Once you accept that Windows pretty much HAS to have at least 2 versions, one could then argue if more are needed and which ones. Looking at the W7 lineup we can speculate a bit:

Since Professional is now a superset of Home (Premium) there's no artificial requirement for a third edition. Instead MS chose to have Pro miss some features. I disagree with this because there was simply no need for it. Let's assume for argument's sake that Ultimate/Enterprise has exactly the same featureset as Pro. You'll still have major corps getting a VLK version because they have to have that. So Microsoft could simply just charge more for the VLK version of Pro. Now that Pro is Business + Home Premium, there's arguably no feature Ultimate has that would appeal to individuals (in large numbers anyway - MS themselves say Ultimate is going to have limited availability).

On the other end of the spectrum MS will only license Starter for low-end hardware (read: netbooks) so again, there's no need for an arbitrary edition split because if people are running W7 on an Atom with 1gb of ram there aren't many that would be confortable using more than 3 apps with it, play games on it, etc. They could charge less not because they were taking out features but because the hardware itself would limit the use of those features.

In conclusion, I think OEM and Retail versions of Home + OEM, Retail, and VLK versions of Pro would cover all the market MS wants to target, all the while keeping the "edition number" reduced to just two. Still, they reduced them from Vista so it's an improvement.
 
TBH no-one really gains anything from removing WMP from Windows, for average joe it's a nuisance, you have to go download some media player to play media, and they probably end up downloading the WMP anyway (at least for me first link for media player in google directs to WMP)
Then there's those who want to use some other player, they will need to get their favourite player nevertheless, and let's be honest, the few megs WMP takes from HDD isn't really a loss.
And if you go to the market of players that actually cost something, they usually have some special codec or something which is why they cost (even if there's free alternative / free version too), so those who would buy those, would buy them regardless if WMP is bundled or not.

And let's hypotize that they remove IE too, I mean seriously, who gains anything from the fact that average joe, who hasn't downloaded and burned a web browser to a CD before getting a new computer, has to walk to store and buy (or grab free sample disc or something) that browser just so he could download all the programs he needs?
 
You must be kidding me about the 20~30$ price. Heck, there are countless free media players out there for everyone to download. If others can provide free media players, why can't Microsoft?

Well first of all because they are a convicted monopoly abuser. It's normal and healthy for monopoly holders to be held to much stricter standards than others.

Secondly, those others generally stay have to stay afloat by putting in advertising or nagware, which further reduces the attractiveness of their products vs WMP, which is subsidised illegally.

Not kidding in the slightest about the price. 20-30$ seems a fair price for the functionality of WMP and its codecs.

By this logic, why just pick on media player? How about the built-in calculator? Should Microsoft provide a "calulator-free version" for other calculator vendors to compete? How about Notepad? MS Paint?

I personally don't feel we need a Windows without calculator, but we should probably have versions without the 'free' browser, virus scanner, defragmenter, backup program, touch interface, fax and scan interface, optical burn program, movie maker, speech recognition, java clone and flash clone.

After all there are much better third party programs available for all of that functionality, so why pay for their development?
 
TBH no-one really gains anything from removing WMP from Windows, for average joe it's a nuisance, you have to go download some media player to play media, and they probably end up downloading the WMP anyway (at least for me first link for media player in google directs to WMP)

By and large, most business desktops generally don't need a media player. There's a lot to gain.
 
Well, it's exactly because WMP development is funded by Windows that you can't assign a monetary value to removing WMP from Windows.

So far, the cost is hidden. So an arbitrary value must be assigned. I invite Microsoft to share the actual cost of development.

This becomes clear once you also assign a monetary value to Windows Mail, Movie Maker, Messenger, and all other applications that were, at one time or another, bundled with the OS and funded by Windows licenses. If you did that you'd arrive at a negative price point for Windows (which would be excellent heh).

40-50$ for Windows without the plus pack sounds about reasonable to me. That's a gut feeling though, I'll happily accept other estimates as long as they are substantially lower than the current Windows price.

Once the EU found (right or wrong) that Microsoft was abusing its monopolist position in the OS market by bundling product aimed at another market (Media Player), the sensible course of action would be to make the N editions mandatory in the EU, not as an alternative priced the same; which is exactly what South Korea did with the K editions I believe.

Nah, that would not have been to the advantage of European consumers. Versions with price cuts are much better.
 
By and large, most business desktops generally don't need a media player. There's a lot to gain.

You really see the whooping bit-over-4MB as "a lot to gain"? Removing it from some version won't reduce the price
 
I personally think it's a bad move by Microsoft to offer multiple versions of 7; I'm talking in marketing terms here. Proof from Vista, having more than two versions hurt the Windows OS image (among other things).

I think if MS wants to succeed with Window 7, they need to do away with the Vista campaign all together. They have partly succeeded in doing that by changing/fixing features of the OS itself (I like it). Now, they need to improve the public image of "Windows"; improve it by being whatever Vista is not. So, if Vista has multiple versions, Windows 7 should simply have ONE.

"Windows 7" is a simple name; makes us feel as though were getting back to the basics, they've trimmed the fat, took out the trash and are restarting fresh...

and now they blew it.

I agree. I think 2 versions, or 3 if the last is the netbook OEM only crap should be it.

They need network stuff in home edition though, not the bitlocker crap, but at least remember passwords so a NAS works right and the stupid media home can work. Why try to propose all this cool stuff for people's home and then kill it with your software.
 
You really see the whooping bit-over-4MB as "a lot to gain"? Removing it from some version won't reduce the price

Why of course it should reduce the price. The price of Windows WITH WMP could go up a little compensate though.
 
On the general topic of how many and which product editions Windows 7 should have it's arguably better for both Microsoft and the consumers that there's at least two versions: one for the home and another for businesses. This product tiering has existed ever since Windows NT 3.1 shipped "alongside" Windows 3.1 in the market. It has continued to Win9x/WinNT4 and then Me/Windows2000 and finally XP Home/Professional.
I think it's a little bit different. NTs were roughly an equivalent of today's Server. Business SKUs of Windows that exist today are in line with "for Workgroups" SKUs.

On the other end of the spectrum MS will only license Starter for low-end hardware (read: netbooks)
I don't think it's entirely correct. Starter has max HW specs requirements associated with it. Assuming they stay the way they are for Vista Starter, that excludes 10% of netbooks available on newegg based on RAM alone (1GB max). Vista Starter works only on a subset of CPUs and it comes only in x86 flavor. I believe that Vista Starter had only one working resolution as well (800x600).

At the end of the day I'd be surprised if more than a half of today's netbooks were eligible for Starter edition (again: assuming that requirements stay the same). And we're talking about netbooks today yet Win7 will ship some time from now. Also one of the requirements being memory I find it unlikely fot Dells of the world to even suggest Starter as an option. My understanding is that big portion of their revenue comes from memory upgrades.
 
I think it's a little bit different. NTs were roughly an equivalent of today's Server. Business SKUs of Windows that exist today are in line with "for Workgroups" SKUs.

I think the NT Workstation and 2000 Workstation were more in line with XP's Professional. The Server/Advanced Server/Datacentre versions were more the equivalent to today's Server. Cheers for reminding me about Windows for Workgroups! :D

I don't think it's entirely correct. Starter has max HW specs requirements associated with it. Assuming they stay the way they are for Vista Starter, that excludes 10% of netbooks available on newegg based on RAM alone (1GB max).

Yep, that's what I'm saying. The hw itself limits what you can do with the OS/apps so I don't think there's any need for a specific edition with those limits built-in.

Even when you factor that people will be able to upgrade ram it won't be much of an upgrade (2gb probably) and it will still be limited by Atom anyway.

What I'm basically saying is that MS would lose very little in providing a lower priced version of Home Premium OEM when installed in hw-constrained netbooks compared to shipping a sw-constrained separate version specifically for a hw-constrained netbook. Raining on wet and all.

But I agree with your post a while back that MS has probably studied this throughly so they probably know better. I'm just glad we're getting less versions at OEM/Retail than Vista. Hopefully they'll reduce it again for Win8. ;)
 
Yep, that's what I'm saying. The hw itself limits what you can do with the OS/apps so I don't think there's any need for a specific edition with those limits built-in.
Wild guess: perhaps it's about the price? If you sell the same thing under different pricetags people who paid more will get upset. You will be forced to lower the price for them as well.

Even when you factor that people will be able to upgrade ram it won't be much of an upgrade (2gb probably) and it will still be limited by Atom anyway.
I see no reason in changing Vista's 1GB cap. Supposedly Win7 works much better than Vista on low-to-mid specs, so why would you increase the cap? :)

What I'm basically saying is that MS would lose very little in providing a lower priced version of Home Premium OEM when installed in hw-constrained netbooks compared to shipping a sw-constrained separate version specifically for a hw-constrained netbook. Raining on wet and all.
Yeah, as long as there's no obscure reason you can't tailor the price based on the HW w/o adding new SKU. Again: wild guess.
 
Well first of all because they are a convicted monopoly abuser. It's normal and healthy for monopoly holders to be held to much stricter standards than others.

Secondly, those others generally stay have to stay afloat by putting in advertising or nagware, which further reduces the attractiveness of their products vs WMP, which is subsidised illegally.

This is funny. Almost every media players out there are "subsidised." iTune/Quicktime are subsidised by iPod. RealPlayer are subsidised by RealMedia server and other sales.

Not kidding in the slightest about the price. 20-30$ seems a fair price for the functionality of WMP and its codecs.

Good luck on selling a media player for this price.

I personally don't feel we need a Windows without calculator, but we should probably have versions without the 'free' browser, virus scanner, defragmenter, backup program, touch interface, fax and scan interface, optical burn program, movie maker, speech recognition, java clone and flash clone.

And I want (sorry for the car analogy) a car company to make electric window, powered wheel, automatic gear box, back seats, and radio optional...
Or, for a more computer related analogy: I want Intel to make their CPU with those SSE/MMX instructions optional. I shouldn't have to pay for these instructions I don't need at all!

After all there are much better third party programs available for all of that functionality, so why pay for their development?

The price of their development is probably extremely low, considering the volume of Windows. Even if all those functions "you don't need" cost Microsoft 1 billion dollar a year to develop, with the number of Windows sold each year the cost is probably less than $10 for each copy. If Microsoft has to provide everything optionally, the cost structure of handling these overhead will easily go over $10. That means you probably have to pay more for a "vanilla" Windows than now, and even more for a full functioned one. That's not efficient at all.

You may argue that Microsoft shouldn't develop these functions at all. However, you can't argue with your customers when many of them want these functions. I don't use the "Easy Access" functions in Windows, but should they make it optional? I don't think so.
 
I agree. I think 2 versions, or 3 if the last is the netbook OEM only crap should be it.

They need network stuff in home edition though, not the bitlocker crap, but at least remember passwords so a NAS works right and the stupid media home can work. Why try to propose all this cool stuff for people's home and then kill it with your software.

what are you talking about? Bitlocker is single-handedly one of the best features of post-XP MS OSes. It should be included on all notebooks and mandatory for manufacturers that pre-install MS OS to have it enabled for whole-disk encryption.

It would decrease the amount of identity thefts by a large percentage, though it'd complicate police investigations I suppose by making it more difficult to extract information from notebooks.
 
I personally don't feel we need a Windows without calculator, but we should probably have versions without the 'free' browser, virus scanner, defragmenter, backup program, touch interface, fax and scan interface, optical burn program, movie maker, speech recognition, java clone and flash clone.

You know, half of those features really *should* be part of the basic operating system. Defrag, backup, CD/DVD writing, and I'll add unpacking ZIP/RAR/TGZ/7z/yes_because_the_world_needs_another_bloody_archive_format files.

The implementations of some of those features in Windows is most definitely sub-par, but IMO they should all be available out-of-the-box, properly and seamlessly integrated into the OS and user interface. Third-party apps to do the much of the above seem to have got themselves into a spiral of adding more and more bling and bloat to compete with each other.

Other stuff (eg. movie makers, instant messenger clients, etc.) I could agree with not being in the basic install. But fundamentally though that's just my personal preferences, I'm sure there's lots of people glad to get all this stuff for free with Windows.

After all there are much better third party programs available for all of that functionality, so why pay for their development?

You pay for their development one way or another.
 
what are you talking about? Bitlocker is single-handedly one of the best features of post-XP MS OSes. It should be included on all notebooks and mandatory for manufacturers that pre-install MS OS to have it enabled for whole-disk encryption.

It would decrease the amount of identity thefts by a large percentage, though it'd complicate police investigations I suppose by making it more difficult to extract information from notebooks.

Dude relax, I wasn't saying it wasn't cool.

I was saying if they want to charge extra for that feature go ahead, but they need to make all their OS's work with network stuff easily.

They want something to delineate OS from each other and I was just suggesting that as an option.
 
what are you talking about? Bitlocker is single-handedly one of the best features of post-XP MS OSes. It should be included on all notebooks and mandatory for manufacturers that pre-install MS OS to have it enabled for whole-disk encryption.

It would decrease the amount of identity thefts by a large percentage, though it'd complicate police investigations I suppose by making it more difficult to extract information from notebooks.

I have personally been looking for a solution similar to BitLocker but though I have not used it yet i have seen Ubuntu installed with disk encryption and there is virtually no performance hit. In fact it is blazing fast. My question to you is have you felt in general if there is a performance hit when enabling BitLocker? Linux filesystems are just so darn advanced especially ext4 and ReiserFS...I am curious to know. Thanks!
 
I have personally been looking for a solution similar to BitLocker but though I have not used it yet i have seen Ubuntu installed with disk encryption and there is virtually no performance hit. In fact it is blazing fast. My question to you is have you felt in general if there is a performance hit when enabling BitLocker? Linux filesystems are just so darn advanced especially ext4 and ReiserFS...I am curious to know. Thanks!

I don't notice any difference here. But I don't do many high-throughput read/write operations either from/to the bitlocker encypted drive either. I know that TrueCrypt has a build-in benchmark utility (that will show maximum write/read speed at 100% cpu), but I'm unaware of any similar utility for BitLocker.
 
This is funny. Almost every media players out there are "subsidised." iTune/Quicktime are subsidised by iPod. RealPlayer are subsidised by RealMedia server and other sales.

But of course, those aren't monopolies.

Good luck on selling a media player for this price.

Yeah the market for media players has been quite succesfully destroyed by a company exploiting their monopoly on operating systems. The same goes for many other programs.
 
Back
Top