Windows 7

Yes, that's a great example. They're the ones currently asking the EU for the investigation into Microsoft's antitrust practices when it comes to browsers.

And it's not just about the fact that IE is bundled with Windows... it's mainly about forcing IE to be "more standard compliant" which some think is not necessarily a very good idea (regarding to their complaints).

That's true, but you're in a very comfortable position to keep trying. Because after all your product doesn't need to be better than anyone else's, it doesn't need to make a profit, and you get a paycheck straight out of Windows revenue. It's a sweet deal.

As I said, if you are a rich company, you can do so anyway. It doesn't matter where your money come from. For example, Google is a rich company which major profit come from advertising. And they are also in a "very comfortable position to keep trying and doesn't need to make a profit" for their Google Talk program.

What you're describing is actually just one way of using one's monopoly advantage to impair competitors, so sorry to say, yes it does.

No, it's not. Being rich is different from being monopoly. It does not really matter whether the money comes from monopoly or not. "Abusing money" is different from "abusing monopoly."

Apple is also worse in many respects, but let's face it. If you're working in technology, you can pretty much avoid dealing with Intel, IBM, Apple, Dell, HP or anyone else without too much effort. But aside from a few niche positions, sooner or later you're going to be up to your elbows in Microsoft :)

Not necessarily. Microsoft is, after all, a software company. If you are a hardware manufacturer you probably won't cross lines with Microsoft. Even software companies do not necessarily compete with Microsoft. Face it, most companies which competed with Microsoft and failed are those whose products do not have enough entry barrier to keep competitions from destroying them. A counter example is Photoshop... even with MS Paint bundled in Windows for ages, Adobe seems to be doing quite well.

Let's go back to the original topic: bundling. Bundling is actually an acceptable behavior for many industries, and in some cases it's very hard to draw a line. For example, should an OS comes with a web browser? I think a modern OS should come with a web browser. It's probably one of the most used application in an OS anyway. It's very difficult to define whether an application is "essential" or not. Is a text editor essential? It's not part of an OS kernel. But many (if not all) OS have a built-in text editor. Another example is game consoles. All next generation game consoles have web browser built-in. In a few years Wii may become the dominant game console and the only web browser on Wii is Opera. Is that anti-competitive? Maybe Microsoft should file a complaint that Nintendo should provide a Wii with IE or Firefox bundled? :)

The problem with Microsoft is, well, it's a monopoly. Bundling a web browser in Windows means that it's probably will become the most used web browser in that platform (Safari enjoys a similar benefit on Mac OS X). However, earlier complaints requesting Microsoft to unbundle IE was not successful, because Microsoft claimed that IE is "an essential part of the OS." Whether it's true or not is not important. Requiring Microsoft to sell a special "IE-free" Windows will not help anyone, as evidenced in the "Media Player-free Windows."

Now Microsoft already provided a method to change the default browser, and most OEM vendors make their own Windows images for their machines. Therefore, I think it's quite enough if other companies like Opera want, they can find an OEM to put their browser in their Windows image and make it default browser. I don't think there's any problem with this. Of course, the major problem here is, most OEM are not going to do this if there's no apparent profit. But that's a problem companies like Opera have to solve, not Microsoft. For example, they can provide added value in their software. Actually there are many opportunities regarding IE's current situation: IE is perceived as insecure by many, and it's not the web browser with the best features.
 
You must be kidding me about the 20~30$ price. Heck, there are countless free media players out there for everyone to download. If others can provide free media players, why can't Microsoft?

By this logic, why just pick on media player? How about the built-in calculator? Should Microsoft provide a "calulator-free version" for other calculator vendors to compete? How about Notepad? MS Paint?

Heh let's just go back to command prompts and have the GUI sold separately. :LOL:
 
No, it's not. Being rich is different from being monopoly. It does not really matter whether the money comes from monopoly or not.

Sorry, yes it does.

Not necessarily. Microsoft is, after all, a software company. If you are a hardware manufacturer you probably won't cross lines with Microsoft.

You will almost certainly end up doing business with them.

Even software companies do not necessarily compete with Microsoft. Face it, most companies which competed with Microsoft and failed are those whose products do not have enough entry barrier to keep competitions from destroying them. A counter example is Photoshop... even with MS Paint bundled in Windows for ages, Adobe seems to be doing quite well.

Wait, you're comparing Photoshop to.. MS Paint. I'll let that speak for itself.

The problem with Microsoft is, well, it's a monopoly. Bundling a web browser in Windows means that it's probably will become the most used web browser in that platform

That is actually quite an insightful comment.

(Safari enjoys a similar benefit on Mac OS X). However, earlier complaints requesting Microsoft to unbundle IE was not successful, because Microsoft claimed that IE is "an essential part of the OS." Whether it's true or not is not important. Requiring Microsoft to sell a special "IE-free" Windows will not help anyone, as evidenced in the "Media Player-free Windows."

No, until Media Player-free Windows is properly discounted, it isn't useful evidence.

Microsoft's answer to the complaint was to offer Windows and Windows with Media Player. Both were priced the same. Of course no OEM and no end user in his right mind would ever buy the version w/o Media Player. And so the sponsoring of Media Player goes on, but it doesn't mean anything.

IE-free Windows is certainly possible, and should of course be substantially less expensive.
 
Why is this discussion in the Windows 7 thread?

If you don't like the functions that are bundled with Windows 7, say so. If you're going to sit here and rail against Microsoft's decision-making process regarding integration of new features into Windows operating systems as a whole, go make a new thread.

I personally feel that this is still the most stupid argument ever. OMG, it's so unfair that Microsoft provided a browser for free. Now they've completely screwed all those poor people who were selling browsers. And OMG, they did the same thing with media player, and CD/DVD burning software, and text editors, and now they're doing it again with virtual-machine playback.

If anyone else in the world did it except Microsoft, you wouldn't be all up in arms about it. But since it's got Microsoft's name in the manufacturer title, it's obviously monopolistic and bad without exception.
 
I think what is needed really is the option to not install.
They have simplified the installation to the extent that you can only uninstall a bunch of stuff after the OS is installed.

They should bring back Custom installation option (like existed in eg Win95) where you can pick & choose which non-core modules to install.
 
I'd personally be all for that option. There are numerous pre-installed applications I like and others I simply don't and wish could be removed. Windows Media Player? Great. DVD Maker? Get off my machine. Just many examples like that. Microsoft would please a lot of people if you could simply even remove the applications. Hell, I don't care if they're even installed by default, as long as I could remove them later then I'd be a happy person. But you can't even do that, which is a MAJOR issue.

I'm not the biggest Ubuntu fan, but at least you can remove all of the pre-installed programs for the most part. All the non-core ones anyway.
 
Why is this discussion in the Windows 7 thread?

If you don't like the functions that are bundled with Windows 7, say so. If you're going to sit here and rail against Microsoft's decision-making process regarding integration of new features into Windows operating systems as a whole, go make a new thread.

Why? The availability of various editions as well as the failure of the N versions is not subject matter that I came up with. It appeared quite naturally in this topic about Windows 7.

Would you prefer going back to seeing favourable comments only about this Vista service pack disguised as a new OS?

I personally feel that this is still the most stupid argument ever. OMG, it's so unfair that Microsoft provided a browser for free. Now they've completely screwed all those poor people who were selling browsers. And OMG, they did the same thing with media player, and CD/DVD burning software, and text editors, and now they're doing it again with virtual-machine playback.

No no, it's not for free. It's for buying their operating system.

If anyone else in the world did it except Microsoft, you wouldn't be all up in arms about it.
But since it's got Microsoft's name in the manufacturer title, it's obviously monopolistic and bad without exception.

Why do you make that assumption? I might make these same observations if there were some other convicted monopolist doing this. We won't know, though, because for now it's only Microsoft.

You make it sound as if Microsoft is a topic I speak about often or something. It's not as I'm compelled to share my happiness with Vista in every other damn topic like someone else that I could mention. :)
 
Apple bundles a lot of software with their computers. Somehow I don't see people complaining about it. If Apple can legally offer more functionality than Microsoft for it's users it seems a bit weird.
 
Please note that there isn't a problem with bundling per se. Bundling is only illegal/anti-competitive when you're using a monopolistic position in one market to leverage your presence in another market.

For instance, using the monopoly of the OS market to increase the market share of Windows Media Player in the "media player market" see the MS conviction in the US, EU and South Korea markets.

As someone mentioned previously different countries/regions have different views on what a monopolistic position really means. In some it's 90%+ while in others it might be triggered simply by having a huge market share percentage difference even if overall the market share it still a minority.

Finally there are differences between what companies can do with their products and what they can do in the ecosystem of an open platform: see Mac vs IBM-compatible PC.

As for whether this discussion belongs here: my take on this is that if there's a chance the W7 featureset will be affected by this then yes. But the more recent linux vs mac vs windows rethoric disguised as monopoly-infraction discussion is getting a bit stale.
 
Sorry, yes it does.

If you think so. But it's not the major problem.

You will almost certainly end up doing business with them.

Not really. But that's not important in this discussion.

Wait, you're comparing Photoshop to.. MS Paint. I'll let that speak for itself.

It's you who said bundling something will eventually kill all competitions. This is a counter example.

That is actually quite an insightful comment.

"Probably" is the keyword here.

No, until Media Player-free Windows is properly discounted, it isn't useful evidence.

"Properly discounted" means minus zero, or 1 ~ 2 dollars at most.

By the way, if anyone want to continue this discussion, I suggest to open another thread in "Politics & Ethics of Technology" forum.
 
His point is MS Paint's functionality is so limited compared to Photoshop that they can not be reasonably considered in competition.
 
Please note that there isn't a problem with bundling per se. Bundling is only illegal/anti-competitive when you're using a monopolistic position in one market to leverage your presence in another market.

For instance, using the monopoly of the OS market to increase the market share of Windows Media Player in the "media player market" see the MS conviction in the US, EU and South Korea markets.
The question here is: Is there really a media player market? Or is providing a media player part of the core OS functionality. While that might not have been the case when those anti-competition investigations started, nowadays providing a media player and internet browser can be considered core OS functioniality as every major OS offers them (either in-house or bundled). This is just part of the technical progress.
 
His point is MS Paint's functionality is so limited compared to Photoshop that they can not be reasonably considered in competition.

Then you can also say that Netscape is so bad compared to IE so they can't be reasonably considered in competition.

Yes, when I first used IE 3.0 I didn't want to use Netscape anymore.
 
The question here is: Is there really a media player market? Or is providing a media player part of the core OS functionality. While that might not have been the case when those anti-competition investigations started, nowadays providing a media player and internet browser can be considered core OS functioniality as every major OS offers them (either in-house or bundled). This is just part of the technical progress.

Yes. For example, back in the DOS days there are some so-called "file manager" with a text based "GUI." You can say that there was a market for these applications. But now it would be ridiculous for a modern OS without a file manager.
 
Then you can also say that Netscape is so bad compared to IE so they can't be reasonably considered in competition.

Yes, when I first used IE 3.0 I didn't want to use Netscape anymore.

The gap in functionality between IE and Navigator at that time is not even remotely comparable to the chasm that separates MS paint from Photoshop. It doesn't offer something as indispensable as a cloning tool and the image processing is basically nonexistent.
 
"Properly discounted" means minus zero, or 1 ~ 2 dollars at most.

What a curious amount. That only makes sense if you feel that the work of the programmers of Media Player is also only worth a salary of 0 dollars, or at best a few cents per Windows sold. Now, there are a lot of Windows sold for all sorts of reasons other than needing a Media Player, so a few cents would still be a lot. But competitors obviously don't have that benefit. And most Windows applications seem to sell for a lot more than that.

By the way, if anyone want to continue this discussion, I suggest to open another thread in "Politics & Ethics of Technology" forum.

Might see you there then.
 
But competitors obviously don't have that benefit. And most Windows applications seem to sell for a lot more than that..

What competitor to Windows Media Player do you know of that has a cost associated with them? The best ones out there are FREE -- MediaPlayer Classic: Home Cinema Edition, VideoLan Client, DiVX Player.

Based on the limited capabilities Windows Media Player has compared to these other players, I think any cost other than FREE would be a ripoff.
 
What competitor to Windows Media Player do you know of that has a cost associated with them? The best ones out there are FREE -- MediaPlayer Classic: Home Cinema Edition, VideoLan Client, DiVX Player.

Based on the limited capabilities Windows Media Player has compared to these other players, I think any cost other than FREE would be a ripoff.

This has been covered extensively before. Please follow the moderator's suggestions and continue this discussion in a separate topic if you want to reiterate that argument. Thanks.
 
/me awaits for the posts to be moved into the new topic...
 
I opened a new thread here and please continue the discussions of the relationship between feature bundling and Microsoft's monopoly, anti-competitive behaviors, etc. there, thanks.
 
Back
Top