why the xbox720 should be using HD-DVD

[eastmen]

This is a good idea in theory, but why on earth shouldn't the X720 just use bluray? It will be cheaper, better and actually useful (since most likely most movies will be bluray releases in the future)

Those points might not be true.

1) Hd dvd / bluray combo drives were under $100 through the holiday. You can get a bluray burner , hd dvd reader and dvd drive for $200. I don't think the cost of hd dvd is out there pricing wise and it seems as though the tech is similar enough that costs for hd dvd should continue to scale down as bluray costs scale down

2) IF movies are your concern. MS has netflix and their movie/tv download stores. They really might not need bluray to compete.

3) Hd dvd or a version of it will have a lack of media and burners out there making pirating harder. Whats more is that a few tweaks here and there could render the disc useless in one of the few hd dvd pc drives adn thus save it from being ripped to hardrive and what have you.

4) I don't see a need for 400 gigs as others are saying. One day i'm sure it will be usefull but not on systems that will have less than 8 gigs of ram and the cost to fill that disc with content will be extremely expensive unless its all useless cgi crap.


Honestly i see MS using flash based tech before hd dvd though.

 

[liolio]

Would be incredibly brave of Microsoft to release there next console with an HD-DVD drive, or indeed derivative of. I can see the internet headlines already: "Microsoft releases next gen console with dead disc format". Though the idea has a few advantages I'm afraid Microsoft would be handed their hat and shown to the nearest exit before their new console has even been allowed to show it's worth.

I don't agree, did we see that many complain about the gamecube optical drive?
If the drive is up to specs in regard to seek times, speed transfer and capacities I don't see why Ms would be bashed. And by 2011/12 MS will be pushing on-line distribution even stronger in fact having optical drive able to read movies might not meet their best interest.
Between a modified BR player could also do the trick (as Nintendo did with the Gamecube).

 

[-tkf-]

Toshiba said that producing HD-DVD has little cost over the production of dvds.
As Microsoft is the only company to press/produce the authorised xbox-discs, they could easily upgrade to HD-DVD.
The technology is dead now, so it should be very cheap to license.

It will be more piracy proof than the xbox360; seeing as the format is dead, there are no new burners being made, as a matter of fact, there never were any commercially available burners for i know. Let alone dual layer HD-DVDR-discs.

They can rebrand the technology to XBD.
"XBD (XBOX DISC), with up to 30 gigabyte of next generation gaming pleasure! only on xbox720"

No one can pirate the discs, so if microsoft keeps the hdd security as tight as this generation of xbox360, they could have a piracy-free platform for many years, at almost no added cost (over dvd)
So HD-DVD dying could actualy be good for the next microsoft console.

What do you think?
(And don't give me "nah! microsoft told me that physical media is dead! in 2011 all homes in united states of america will be able to stream 30GB games in realtime!)"

HD-DVD movies can´t be bought, why use a DEAD format where you can´t bye movies when you have a excellent format with 40% more space and falling prices on manufactoring.

 

[Arwin]

Nice 8x increase in art creation budgets? Good luck filling 400MB up... Maybe for GT6 in 2020

That's assuming art creation itself isn't a moving target ... It may have been behind on the tech-curve this generation, but I'm predicting a big catch-up. Of course, efficiency will also continue to improve so we may never need it - but right now I'm not going to make that the default assumption.

 

[Carl B]

HD-DVD movies can´t be bought, why use a DEAD format where you can´t bye movies when you have a excellent format with 40% more space and falling prices on manufactoring.

The point of the HD DVD move would be to reduce disc-based piracy, as was the premise of the thread. MS wouldn't publicly state that they're using HD DVD, it would just simply be the 'XBox 360 format.'

That said I think it's a dead-end route to take, as a BD drive should be very cheap to throw in by that point and it of course would add BD playback to the list of console features. To what extent in the future that feature will matter I don't know, but I would still think it somewhat material.

 

[DrJay24]

This is a good idea in theory, but why on earth shouldn't the X720 just use bluray? It will be cheaper, better and actually useful (since most likely most movies will be bluray releases in the future)

Because BD = Sony in many people's minds.

There are still people in the US south that are bitter at the north because of the war in 1860's.

MS would be foolish not to use BD, a cheap established 50GB optical format that comes with HD movie playback. Why invent or use something more expensive or with less features, to spite the BD group?

 

[NathansFortune]

The point of the HD DVD move would be to reduce disc-based piracy, as was the premise of the thread. MS wouldn't publicly state that they're using HD DVD, it would just simply be the 'XBox 360 format.'

That said I think it's a dead-end route to take, as a BD drive should be very cheap to throw in by that point and it of course would add BD playback to the list of console features. To what extent in the future that feature will matter I don't know, but I would still think it somewhat material.

Of course that will be true, but I wouldn't count out HD DVD as being the same price or cheaper. It uses the same laser diode as Blu-ray and the same optics present in a DVD player. The cost of making a HD DV-ROM drive is still lower than the cost of making a BD-ROM drive.

On the subject of using HD DVD, it makes a lot of sense, it is a proprietary disc system with a massive infrastructure already in place without little to no external royalty payments to be made (Toshiba will take anything at this point).

I don't think MS would be too bothered about not having HD optical movie playback, it just gives them more opportunity to push XBL as a full media service rather than just gaming.

 

[eastmen]

Because BD = Sony in many people's minds.

There are still people in the US south that are bitter at the north because of the war in 1860's.

MS would be foolish not to use BD, a cheap established 50GB optical format that comes with HD movie playback. Why invent or use something more expensive or with less features, to spite the BD group?

Perhaps its because BD is slow as heck and many of us think we will see 4-8 gigs of system ram in next gen systems.

RIght now at 2x bluray trasnfers at 9MB/s. The ps3 has 512MBs of room. That means it takes 57 seconds to fill up that ram. Thats almost a minute.

however lets assume in 2011 we have 12x blurays at at transfer rate of 54MB/s with 2 gigs of ram is 37 seconds , 4 gigs of ram doubles that 74 seconds and if we are lucky enough to get 8 gigs of ram you double that again 148 seconds.

Those are not good trasnfer rates , thats also if they can even make a 12x bluray drive and of course thats with the disc spinning very fast and making lots of noise , a complaint thrown at the 360 and its 12x dvd drive often.

Now lets look at expanding the disc to store more content. Dual layer discs are 50 gigs. To get to the 400 gigs some peopel have said in this thread your looking at 16 layer discs. What exactly will the read speed be as you go deeper into the disc ? What would the switching cost be for moving deeper down the layers ?


I don't know how good of a format bluray is for a continued gaming format.


Now perhaps toshiba sitting on a format that isn't being used they could possibly tweak hd dvd to meet the requirements of a next gen system. HD- DVD was a format created for launch in 2005. In 2011 i'm sure they could do more with the discs. 45 gig tri layer discs should be more than enough with todays compression. What i wonder about is transfer rates. If toshiba could increase the transfer rates to double or tripple what they are with bluray/hd dvd it may be a no brainer for MS esp if disc costs are low.

I'd wager that 20MB/s would be good for a 1x read speed. Ship the drive at 6x and your looking at 120MB/s that would fill up 2 gigs in 16 seconds , 4 gigs in 32 seconds , 8 gigs in 64 seconds.


Of course I'd say they just go with SDXC if they are going to use a format other than bluray. It is flash based and will go to 1TB but it has transfer speeds starting at 104MB/s and there are plans for 300MB/s cards.

Uses a custom verison of these not only can you crease your own format but you can get rid of a huge 5 1/2 drive from the casing. You also remove moving parts and you can add resell protection to the flash card by imprinting it with a console serial code that then either the game owner or a store like gamestop would have to pay to erase for resell.

 

[Brimstone]

Microsoft can include a Blu-Ray drive and not enable Blu-Ray playback.


Although I think it is more likely they'll just include a Blu-Ray drive with full playback. They'll probably partner with Samsung and the specs will allow for quad layer discs for games.

 

[Carl B]

The cost of making a HD DV-ROM drive is still lower than the cost of making a BD-ROM drive.

That's in the abstract though, as it would still need line dedication. Whether two/three years from now the savings from the legacy optics usage would be enough to warrant line dedication at an OEM over just simply going BD and including that check-box feature is something that we'll only be able to guess at accurately a couple of years from now, but where HD DVD is a fine format for game disc distribution, its ostensible cost advantages as the years go on diminish. So it would really just be an anti-piracy move for MS from a disc burning/replication perspective.

 

[joker454]

Microsoft can include a Blu-Ray drive and not enable Blu-Ray playback.

That's actually a good point. That way they can get the benefits of economies of scale with the bluray drive itself, yet not have to support competing technologies like disc based movies and java, as well as avoid many of the licensing costs associated with bluray movies which apparently are numerous. Plus this way they at least have the option of enabling bluray movie playback at a later date if they really had to. Seems like a good middle ground to be on, get the benefits of what should be a mature bluray drive market and mostly avoid supporting the competition unless absolutely necessary.

 

[grandmaster]

Or they could simply have a 'Blu-ray player' pack for £30 or whatever. The bottom line though is that if PS4 plays back BDs and costs the same as 720, you can bet your life that 720 will support it too.

 

[jonabbey]

Perhaps its because BD is slow as heck and many of us think we will see 4-8 gigs of system ram in next gen systems.

RIght now at 2x bluray trasnfers at 9MB/s. The ps3 has 512MBs of room. That means it takes 57 seconds to fill up that ram. Thats almost a minute.

however lets assume in 2011 we have 12x blurays at at transfer rate of 54MB/s with 2 gigs of ram is 37 seconds , 4 gigs of ram doubles that 74 seconds and if we are lucky enough to get 8 gigs of ram you double that again 148 seconds.

Those are not good trasnfer rates , thats also if they can even make a 12x bluray drive and of course thats with the disc spinning very fast and making lots of noise , a complaint thrown at the 360 and its 12x dvd drive often.

Blu-Ray can burst faster read times at a given revolution speed relative to DVD due to the higher density of data on the disc, but it has to use a different lens assembly to get that density.

I'd wager that 20MB/s would be good for a 1x read speed. Ship the drive at 6x and your looking at 120MB/s that would fill up 2 gigs in 16 seconds , 4 gigs in 32 seconds , 8 gigs in 64 seconds.

Unless the hypothetical optical drive is somehow reading multiple tracks in parallel (or going holographic) it's hard to see doing much better than Blu-Ray at a given rotation speed.

Of course I'd say they just go with SDXC if they are going to use a format other than bluray. It is flash based and will go to 1TB but it has transfer speeds starting at 104MB/s and there are plans for 300MB/s cards.

Uses a custom verison of these not only can you crease your own format but you can get rid of a huge 5 1/2 drive from the casing. You also remove moving parts and you can add resell protection to the flash card by imprinting it with a console serial code that then either the game owner or a store like gamestop would have to pay to erase for resell.

Assuming the price could ever be competitive on a per-unit cost, yeah. That would be pretty sweet.

 

[Brimstone]

The main incentive for Microsoft to include a Blu-Ray player with full BD playback is to intice the Hardcore PS3 owners to buy a XB720.

The Hardcore PS3 owner is going to own some BD movies, so if the XB720 can play them it just makes the platform more appealing to that segment. Microsoft wants the Hardcore gamer.

 

[joker454]

Or they could simply have a 'Blu-ray player' pack for £30 or whatever. The bottom line though is that if PS4 plays back BDs and costs the same as 720, you can bet your life that 720 will support it too.

I like the idea of a separate blu-ray movie playback kit, that way the cost is shifted to those that really want it. Here's a quote from another article regarding costs:

http://www.betanews.com/article/Unified-Bluray-licensing-is-remedy-to-bag-of-hurt/1235601079

"Licenses were sometimes in excess of $20 per player depending on the type of machine being created. The new licensing fees taking effect later this year will be $9.50 for a Blu-ray player, $14 for a Blu-ray recorder,"

$10 at quantity 50 million is quite significant, so I can see the argument to not include it standard. They can either pocket that cash, or use it to slightly improve the console itself. What would $10/console get them? Maybe a slightly faster blu-ray drive? Maybe a smidgen more ram? Either way, skipping standard blu-ray movie playback seems like a good option.

 

[-tkf-]

and it of course would add BD playback to the list of console features. To what extent in the future that feature will matter I don't know, but I would still think it somewhat material.

Digital streaming will have to be a defacto standard by XBOX 720 then. I find that extremely unlikely.

 

[RudeCurve]

It's an interesting idea with a lot of advantages but it's just not going to happen. Drive costs come down owing to volume. BD drives will be sold in volume so will be cheaper to make, HD DVD drives won't be.

If MS goes with HD DVD as a proprietary format they'll be signing a contract with Toshiba and/or other drive manufacturers like LG for tens of millions of them...that's volume. Toshiba could even license their super upconversion tech to MS for DVD playback. Many people prefer not to have to rebuy their whole DVD collection just to get HD.

 

[DrJay24]

Perhaps its because BD is slow as heck and many of us think we will see 4-8 gigs of system ram in next gen systems.

And HD-DVD is faster?

Why throw out specs of generation 1 Blu-Ray? Is MS going for 2005 era BD drives in 2011? You are just re-enforcing my analogy of the lost war..

Sure they can sell the BD playback kit just like the Xbox DVD kit. As long as a Wi-Fi kit isn't another $100, this nickel and dime stuff is great for MS and bad for my wallet.

 

[NathansFortune]

That's in the abstract though, as it would still need line dedication. Whether two/three years from now the savings from the legacy optics usage would be enough to warrant line dedication at an OEM over just simply going BD and including that check-box feature is something that we'll only be able to guess at accurately a couple of years from now, but where HD DVD is a fine format for game disc distribution, its ostensible cost advantages as the years go on diminish. So it would really just be an anti-piracy move for MS from a disc burning/replication perspective.

Piracy is pretty bad around these parts (UK/EU) so MS should do something about it. Places in London sell premodded consoles with 10 "back-up" games for £20 more than the regular version.

I think the overriding sentiment within MS will probably be to go with Blu-ray. It is an easy solution, but I wouldn't rule out HD DVD, high transfer rates (the same as Blu-ray), high density, cheap disc production (over 100 DVD lines in the US are HD DVD capable and current DVD lines are sold as HD DVD capable), and cheap drive production.

Haha, I sound like DeadmeatGA! Who'd have thought it, me proposing HD DVD as a solution to anyone's problems!

 

[AzBat]

Why not do the combo Bluray/HD-DVD drive but only use HD-DVD for games & offer a Bluray movie kit(via software download) to support movies? This way MS gets the best of both worlds: less piracy with a dead format & support for the defacto hi-def movie format for only those that want to pay for it.

Tommy McClain