Why does Sony create such wacky architectures?

[Crazyace]

Hi fill rate - After all there's always going to be something that you miss.. and it can be dangerous assuming that visual quality is the most important feature of a games console...

 

[PC-Engine]

Your original argument was that N2 couldn't do Halo 2 at 30 fps which I see no reason why it can't.

Because, apparently, it's not a walk in the park on Xbox, a platform that is much more apt in doing per pixel operations, than N2 can ever hope to be. You seem to insist that N2 is capable of everything Xbox with it's NV2X can do, and at the same speed, although even on paper it's obviously not the case.

Your argument was that the Xbox can push more polys than N2 therefore Halo 2 couldn't be done on N2..flawed logic.

Your argument was that Xbox can do extensive bumpmapping therefore Halo 2 couldn't be done on N2..flawed logic.

And no I didn't say N2 can do "everything" Xbox can. I said N2 can do Halo 2 at 30 fps with or without bumpmapping. Halo probably has an average of 2.5x overdraw so fillrate isn't a problem either and neither is shadow volumes. N2 probably wouldn't be able to do the DD5.1 though it can probably do DPLII

 

[marconelly!]

Your argument was that the Xbox can push more polys than N2 therefore Halo 2 couldn't be done on N2..flawed logic.

Your argument was that Xbox can do extensive bumpmapping therefore Halo 2 couldn't be done on N2..flawed logic.

How is any of those two flawed logic? Are you honestly suggesting that N2 could match Xbox hardware in any of those two departments? What's next? Perhaps you will tell me that Dreamcast could to Halo 2 at 15-20FPS? PSX could probably do it at 5-6FPS, then. Not so bad...

 

[PC-Engine]

Your argument was that the Xbox can push more polys than N2 therefore Halo 2 couldn't be done on N2..flawed logic.

Your argument was that Xbox can do extensive bumpmapping therefore Halo 2 couldn't be done on N2..flawed logic.

How is any of those two flawed logic? Are you honestly suggesting that N2 could match Xbox hardware in any of those two departments? What's next? Perhaps you will tell me that Dreamcast could to Halo 2 at 15-20FPS? PSX could probably do it at 5-6FPS, then. Not so bad...

It's flawed because you don't know what's limiting Halo 2 on Xbox to 30 fps if indeed it ends up running at that speed

What makes you think that Halo 3 isn't going to surpass 2?

Keep in mind that Halo 1 ran at 30 fps too

 

[marconelly!]

It's flawed because you don't know what's limiting Halo 2 on Xbox to 30 fps if indeed it ends up running at that speed

Well, apparently *something* is limiting it, and it's certainly not developers incompetence. Considering that Xbox excells N2 in most everything (except *maybe* in vertex lighting, that Halo 2 isn't even using), I don't see what are you trying to argue.

What makes you think that Halo 3 isn't going to surpass 2?

Nothing makes me think that. Halo 3 is going to be an Xbox 2 launch game. I think that much is obvious.

 

[PC-Engine]

Well, apparently *something* is limiting it, and it's certainly not developers incompetence. Considering that Xbox excells N2 in most everything (except *maybe* in vertex lighting, that Halo 2 isn't even using), I don't see what are you trying to argue.

Sure, but first you said it's limited by geometry, then you say it's bumpmapping, so which is it? Initially you thought bumpmapping wasn't a hardware feature, then changed that to it being too expensive for ingame usage. Then Simon F said it only takes one clock and then you reverted to the vague assumption that since Xbox is better than N2 at most things, Halo 2 couldn't be done since it's maxing out Xbox? What are YOU arguing?

BTW both N2 and Xbox support perpixel lighting so get over it. If it makes you feel better to believe N2 doesn't then feel free to be deluded. Here's something to help you lesson the delusion.

The conservative (i.e. quite a bit below the max spec) figures quoted are 10MT/s with 6 fully-featured lights (i.e. not just a dot product!). None of the DX7 chips that have been released and possibly no DX8 chips either would come close to performing what Elan was designed to do.

 

[marconelly!]

Sure, but first you said it's limited by geometry, then you say it's bumpmapping, so which is it? Initially you thought bumpmapping wasn't a hardware feature, then changed that to it being too expensive for ingame usage.

Uh, as far as I remember, I was arguning from the beginning that it's the overal inferiority of N2 that would simply put it below the target. I think you have mixed my posts with those of other people.

I was simply basing my assumptions of what I've seen beng done on the N2 board, and frankly, neither that or it's specs are supporting your point of view. Maybe in some magic land where anything is possible on everything, Halo 2 would be possible on N2 or Dreamcast, but I don't see any evidence of that in our reality.

 

[archie4oz]

(except *maybe* in vertex lighting, that Halo 2 isn't even using)

It's kinda hard to set-up any per-fragment lighting calcs without a vertex light you know...

I once had a chat with my university roommate and some of his co-workers who had spent some time on various arcade boards (including NAOMI 2 and CHIHIRO), and the general consensus was they were fairly comparable. Of course each of their strengths vs. each other (e.g. CHIHIRO having higher fill-rates and way more CPU, while NAOMI 2 benefitting from more memory and not having your vertex and fragment processor(s) interlocked)...

From what I've seen of Halo 2 so far, I don't really see much that couldn't possibly be done on NAOMI 2 aside from DICE... If anything, you're more likely to encounter a bottleneck on the CPU more than anything else...

 

[vers]

its SUXX
too much processor ,too much assembly, and no per/pixel

 

[marconelly!]

I guess if others can correct my mistake that N2 was not capable of per pixel lighting, I should correct others' mistakes PS2 is not only capable of it, but some games actually have it implemented and it looks rather nice. Surely, not in a full scene way the Doom 3 is doing, but texture blending per pixel lighting has been done on PS2.

 

[overclocked]

The most of you guys are hardware freaks so i just think it´s even more interresting when a company does something that diff from the standard.

 

[archie4oz]

I guess if others can correct my mistake that N2 was not capable of per pixel lighting, I should correct others' mistakes PS2 is not only capable of it, but some games actually have it implemented and it looks rather nice. Surely, not in a full scene way the Doom 3 is doing, but texture blending per pixel lighting has been done on PS2.

Well really, the big thing you really need is dot3 support... I mean you can do it on GeForce/GF2 (I've done a couple of demos of per-pixel on my friend's Mac with a GF4MX). Hell the EMBM capability of the G400 was basically just a fixed, subset implimentation of dot3. You can do on the PS2 as well, you just burn a lot of passes 'emulating' dot3 (if you've got a lot of lights). Dependent texture reads would really help out a lot too...

 

[Guest]

From what I've seen of Halo 2 so far, I don't really see much that couldn't possibly be done on NAOMI 2 aside from DICE...

Are you sure of that kid?
N2 = Xbox????

So Sega did have a killer hardware to counter and destroy PS2, if they wanted to?
PS2 lack of pixel effects is killing it.

 

[Panajev2001a]

*Panajev looks at SH3 and Z.O.E. 2

I don't think so chap

 

[Guest]

*looks at Halo 2, Fable, Duality, Apex, Dues Ex 2

I say it is possible.
Now where is that screen of SH3 with a nice angular cutoff in the torchlighting?

 

[Guest]

Pixel effects?


I dont see the deal with SH3 anyway. Nice but just a few(2?) high polygon models in a cutscene.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I dont see the deal with SH3 anyway. Nice but just a few(2?) high polygon models in a cutscene

BOOO.... HIIISSSS!!!

Anyways, thanks for stealing the heat from my GA thread ( j/k )... yeah apparently that is "just" normal mapping and not displacement mapping...

 

[marconelly!]

I dont see the deal with SH3 anyway.

Just look the videos. Not only it has the most natural looking and beautifully animated character models in the cut scenes, It's not much different during the actual gameplay. The game is really pretty.

*looks at Halo 2, Fable, Duality, Apex, Dues Ex 2

You mean this, realtime Duality?

http://www.gamers.com/i/pics/1304956.jpg
http://www.gamers.com/i/pics/1304926.jpg
http://www.gamers.com/i/pics/1304916.jpg

Or a Duality from that pre-rendered video ?

 

[Thowllly]

*looks at Halo 2, Fable, Duality, Apex, Dues Ex 2

You mean this, realtime Duality?

http://www.gamers.com/i/pics/1304956.jpg
http://www.gamers.com/i/pics/1304926.jpg
http://www.gamers.com/i/pics/1304916.jpg

Or a Duality from that pre-rendered video ?

That is some ugly textures! And 'Chap the graphics whore' actually thinks that looks good?

 

[Guest]

Marc, you of all people should know that those are very very early Duality shots.

One of the developer(TrojanX) has stated time and again, at TXB that the actual game looks comparable to Halo 2 and Doom 3.

There is a E3 video of Duality and it looks great and i am certain it is realtime. You can see some aliasing in the background.