Why does Sony create such wacky architectures?

[Phil]

There are a lot of sport titles on that 60 fps list Lazy8s... Not being a big Dreamcast gamer, I can see how someone would say that the majority of great DC games run at 30 fps, I mean, just look at the list right there. :?

 

[Ozymandis]

Why doesn't someone make a Ps2 list, an Xbox list, and a Gamecube list, and we'll see how many games on each system run at 60 fps?

I can't think of but a couple of Xbox games that do...

 

[phat]

Of that list of 60Hz games, remove all the sports sequels (should NFL 2K, 2K1, and 2K2 really count as three games?), and the games that are actually 30 fps (like Grandia II, Berserk, Soul Reaver), and what are you left with? A mostly uninteresting list full of games like Chu chu rocket, samba de amigo, typing of the dead, seaman... It seems that the 60Hz list is dominated by really graphically simple games, and that the better known games with more general 3D environments much more often than not fall into the 30Hz category

Why don't you guys just let the DC rest in peace, already?

 

[Lazy8s]

Phil:

There are a lot of sport titles on that 60 fps list Lazy8s...

So? SEGA basically made it a standard for their sports games to run at 60 full frames per second, much like they've pretty much made it a standard for their arcade titles to run at 60 full frames per second. It's an impressive accomplishment in itself.

Not being a big Dreamcast gamer, I can see how someone would say that the majority of great DC games run at 30 fps, I mean, just look at the list right there.

The impression the average Dreamcast gamer would have, statistically speaking, is that many of the system's games run at 60 hz. Those sports games were very popular, turning in the high hundred thousands in sales with each iteration (much more than an average DC game). So, a random DC player is more likely to have experienced those games rather than a game you would consider great.

Secondly, the challenge was to list great DC games, so I chose some of the real quality ones. In case you didn't know, those sports games I listed were widely considered some of the best ever at their time of release.

phat:

Of that list of 60Hz games, remove all the sports sequels (should NFL 2K, 2K1, and 2K2 really count as three games?),

Well, considering they were sold as three separate games and they were each individually more popular than almost any other game on that list (meaning the average DC gamer is more likely to have experienced them), and also considering the engine of the game had to be rewritten pretty heavily for some of the yearly updates (most notably online play), I think there's at least some justification for listing them like that.

and the games that are actually 30 fps (like Grandia II, Berserk, Soul Reaver),

I'm almost certain Soul Reaver is 60 fps. I'll have to recheck on Berserk.

and what are you left with? A mostly uninteresting list full of games like Chu chu rocket, samba de amigo, typing of the dead, seaman...

You just called some of the highest rated and of my personal favorite games "uninteresting". I won't defend the other three with regard to technical accomplishments much, but you certainly wouldn't call Samba de Amigo "uninteresting" from a technical standpoint. The graphics are shockingly good and detailed, with tons and tons of dynamic characters on-screen and perfect (I'm not exaggerating much) textures.

It seems that the 60Hz list is dominated by really graphically simple games,

I would say a free roaming driving game like Crazy Taxi 2 looks at least as good as any on PS2, The Getaway and GTA3 series included. The look of the shadows creeping over the gorgeous courts in Virtua Tennis has a shades of photorealism at times, and the close-ups of the well-modeled and well-animated NFL 2Kx players between plays can fool you into thinking it's a broadcast if you just happen to take a quick glance. Dead or Alive 2, F355, Outtrigger, Sonic Adventure 2, and the World Series Baseballs are not graphically "simple" by any means.

and that the better known games

If by better known, you mean generally worse selling and less popular...

with more general 3D environments much more often than not fall into the 30Hz category

Just as the graphically complex PS2 games fall into the 30hz category many times... Silent Hills, ICO, etc.

Why don't you guys just let the DC rest in peace, already?

We're on an enthusiast message board about console gaming, free from the "casual gamer's" world where only the newest and most popular thing gets discussion. Things like market viability shouldn't limit our, of all peoples', scope of discussion.

And, if you're implying about the technological standing of the DC, then we shouldn't be talking about the PS2 at all either since Xbox and its games handily surpass it.

 

[Phil]

The impression the average Dreamcast gamer would have, statistically speaking, is that many of the system's games run at 60 hz.

If the average Dreamcast gamer (statistically speaking) limited himself to mostly sports games, then I guess you've got a point there.

Personally I find the list you posted says far more than words would ever hope to achieve... Shenmue, MDK2, Resident Evil, MSR, Q3, UT, Le Mans, JGR... next time I ever get into a debate about games on DC with great graphics, I'll be sure to remember which ones run at half the pixelresolution...

I would say a free roaming driving game like Crazy Taxi 2 looks at least as good as any on PS2, The Getaway and GTA3 series included.

Perhaps in your world...

 

[marconelly!]

Well, I see Lazy's point, but I'm not much of a sports gamer, and some of those games from his 60FPS list I haven't even heard of :\ Maybe that's why I had the impression that I mentioned, because I have more games from his 30FPS list.

 

[Sonic]

From Phil: "Personally I find the list you posted says far more than words would ever hope to achieve... Shenmue, MDK2, Resident Evil, MSR, Q3, UT, Le Mans, JGR... next time I ever get into a debate about games on DC with great graphics, I'll be sure to remember which ones run at half the pixelresolution... "

And at what resolution are htye being halved at? Those games run at 640*480 the last time I checked, but maybe they're running at a lower resolution? Maybe you can clarify this for me a bit, as that would also mean by your definition that games like Halo run at half the pixelresolution. Please clarify.

 

[Thowllly]

And at what resolution are htye being halved at? Those games run at 640*480 the last time I checked, but maybe they're running at a lower resolution? Maybe you can clarify this for me a bit, as that would also mean by your definition that games like Halo run at half the pixelresolution. Please clarify.

They run at half the resolution over the time domain. (Is that the correct wording?) If you look back at some of Lazy8s earlier posts you'll see that he has been quite critical at games that does just that

 

[Lazy8s]

Phil:

If the average Dreamcast gamer (statistically speaking) limited himself to mostly sports games, then I guess you've got a point there.

You're right, my point is correct. 60hz DC games accounted for a great deal of all game sales, helped in no small part by sports sales: NFL 2K's 990,033, NFL 2K1's 903,860, NBA 2K's 724,872, NBA 2K1's 741,018, World Series Baseball 2K1's 415,298, and even a game like Virtua Tennis with its 367,644.

That's not to say sports games were the only popular games which ran at 60hz. Try other non-sports DC hits like: Crazy Taxi 966,240, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 338,517, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2 354,376, Ultimate Fighting Championship 205,935, Soul Calibur 573,567, SEGA Bass Fishing 339,593, Soul Reaver 207,834, and Sonic Adventure 2's 390,108. Heck, even 60 hz arcade ports like Zombie Revenge charted over 100k.

Now, you might really like some of those 30hz games (I do too), but many of them just weren't played by as many DC gamers as those 60hz I listed up top. Besides Sonic Adventure's 1,000,000, Shenmue's 500k, and Resident Evil: Code Veronica's 351,893, a lot of them didn't reach so many DC gamers. Ecco the Dolphin sold 110,011, Space Channel 5 sold 85,971, Quake III: Arena sold 131,181, and Unreal Torunament sold 103,803.

Lots of popular games of every type (not just sports games, though they were far and away the sales leader) ran at 60hz, so the average Dreamcast gamer would certainly be given the rightful impression than many of the system's games did in fact run at 60fps. That is, if statistics and facts have any meaning...

Personally I find the list you posted says far more than words would ever hope to achieve... Shenmue, MDK2, Resident Evil, MSR, Q3, UT, Le Mans, JGR... next time I ever get into a debate about games on DC with great graphics, I'll be sure to remember which ones run at half the pixelresolution...

You do that. And while you're at it, make sure you also don't forget that Gran Turismo 3, Metal Gear Solid 2, Jak and Daxter, Ratchet and Clank, Shinobi, Zone of the Enders 2 etc etc etc also run at half the pixelresolution. For pixelresolution output, 640x480x30 = 640x240x60. It's just too bad full frame buffer games like GT3 and MGS2 never flicked that magic switch that would've made all the difference in the end to proscan users...

Perhaps in your world...

Crazy Taxi 2 I believe uses self-shadowing (like its predecessor too I think) and runs at 60 full frames per second. Compared to the 30 fps GTA3s and the unstable Getaway, it can hold its own. It also doesn't have crazy graphic malfunctions like the disappearing texture maps of GTA3.

 

[Phil]

Lazy8s:

You didn't have to go through that effort of backing your arguement up with numbers - I think this whole 30/60 fps thing was pulled way out of proportion and the point has already been proven. Regardless of how good those sport titles sold on Dreamcast, I think it is fair to say that sports games running at decent 60ish framerates is no exception on other platforms.

You do that. And while you're at it, make sure you also don't forget that Gran Turismo 3, Metal Gear Solid 2, Jak and Daxter, Ratchet and Clank, Shinobi, Zone of the Enders 2 etc etc etc also run at half the pixelresolution. For pixelresolution output, 640x480x30 = 640x240x60. It's just too bad full frame buffer games like GT3 and MGS2 never flicked that magic switch that would've made all the difference in the end to proscan users...

Quite francly, I don't give a damn. As a PAL user (and not being a rich little hobbit myself), I can't get that full-frames experience anyway. Of course, I could use my little 21" computer monitor, but having the choice of using my 100Hz 32" widescreen TV, I think I rather pass. When we get down to comparing platforms though, the knowledge of knowing which games do use full frame buffers is more indicative then what goes out to the screen. Therefore, I think the whole pixel arguement in rather lame - at least for europeans with no progressive displays anyway.

Crazy Taxi 2 I believe uses self-shadowing (like its predecessor too I think) and runs at 60 full frames per second. Compared to the 30 fps GTA3s and the unstable Getaway, it can hold its own. It also doesn't have crazy graphic malfunctions like the disappearing texture maps of GTA3.

You believe? That's quite a full mouth if you want to base your arguement on it holding up against Getaway if you're not even sure about it. Of course, we could resort to posting screens, but I don't think that's necessary.

 

[Lazy8s]

Phil:

Regardless of how good those sport titles sold on Dreamcast, I think it is fair to say that sports games running at decent 60ish framerates is no exception on other platforms.

So... take the sports games off the DC 60hz list, and you still have tons of great non-sports titles which run at 60fps and have good graphics.

The 60hz issue wan't a comparison to other platforms. It was just to prove that many of the DC's flagship games run at 60fps.

You believe? That's quite a full mouth if you want to base your arguement on it holding up against Getaway if you're not even sure about it. Of course, we could resort to posting screens, but I don't think that's necessary.

I'm not basing my argument on it. I'm just noting in passing that it appears the cabs cast shadows on themselves.

Whether they do or not, it doesn't change the fact that the Crazy Taxi cities are packed with cars, pedestrians, tall buildings, and a sprawling cityscape in every direction with distinctive texturing for real-life locales like KFC, Pizza Hut, Burger King, etc. In runs at 60 full frames per second progressive, and has a silky smooth framerate and great sense of speed. The AI cars actually drive around obeying traffic laws, using their turning blinkers and hazard lights, and adjusting to the chaos you bring as you weave through them and smash into them. Also, the Around Apple course in Crazy Taxi 2 is just mammoth in size, linking several smaller cities together with bridges and overpasses.

 

[Guest]

Yes-yes. DC is a good system. So was Voodoo3 or a GF1 or a GF4 and now a 9700. Times changes, so what was good then is not now. Yay!

 

[Phil]

I'm not basing my argument on it. I'm just noting in passing that it appears the cabs cast shadows on themselves.

Whether they do or not, it doesn't change the fact that the Crazy Taxi cities are packed with cars, pedestrians, tall buildings, and a sprawling cityscape in every direction with distinctive texturing for real-life locales like KFC, Pizza Hut, Burger King, etc. In runs at 60 full frames per second progressive, and has a silky smooth framerate and great sense of speed. The AI cars actually drive around obeying traffic laws, using their turning blinkers and hazard lights, and adjusting to the chaos you bring as you weave through them and smash into them. Also, the Around Apple course in Crazy Taxi 2 is just mammoth in size, linking several smaller cities together with bridges and overpasses.

You haven't played the Getaway, have you?

 

[Lazy8s]

Phil:

You haven't played the Getaway, have you?

BTW: No one was argueing what CrazyTaxi has or doesn't have - it was about how it matches up to the Getaway on PS2 (since it's the only effort in that genre worth mentioning).

Nope, not played, just saw footage (I intend to play through it eventually, but I'm busy with other games now.) I did see quite a bit of its engine in motion, though, including storyline parts and outdoor city parts.

I am comparing Getaway to Crazy Taxi 2, as I mentioned that there's a world of difference in how much smoother Crazy Taxi 2's framerate is over the unstable Getaway. The reason I was describing Crazy Taxi 2 a bit was to emphasize that it wasn't a "simple" game graphically, as had been implied earlier.

 

[Sonic]

Crazy Taxi 2 is a simple game graphically. While it may look clean, it simply doesn't look brilliant. The geometry levels are nothign to write home about and neither are the textures. The draw distance may be impressive for the Dreamcast, but not compared to other systems.

 

[Simon F]

/me changes his mind and decides to stay out of the argument.

 

[Guest]

I think CT looks better than Getaway. Both have muddy textures but at least CT has better colour depth. Getaway looks washed out even with 480p.

But yes, i agree that CT has a arcadey engine, physics, AI and controls. So that might simplify the CPU load

 

[London Geezer]

I think CT looks better than Getaway. Both have muddy textures but at least CT has better colour depth. Getaway looks washed out even with 480p.

But yes, i agree that CT has a arcadey engine, physics, AI and controls. So that might simplify the CPU load

Having arcade phisics AI and control doesn't necessarily means that it's lighter on the CPU than other games... Although yes, in this instance the physics in The Getaway are so much better and realistic than the ones in CT that you could say that.... and i think that the real accomplishment of the game is really the scale of it. And the realism they tried to achieve the whole of Central London (quite accurately i must say). Also, CT does not have an *on foot* part of the game like GTA or The Getaway do. and finally you could say that the whole game of Crazy Taxy is actually included WITH EXTRAS ( ) in GTA3 or VC.......

 

[iscariot]

Getaway looks washed out even with 480p.

London looks washed out...

 

[London Geezer]

Getaway looks washed out even with 480p.

London looks washed out...

yeah and grey and grim and sad........ trust me