Why does Sony create such wacky architectures?

[Guest]

I am impressed with MKDA PS2 too. Very nice looking fighter, even better than T4. I dont think that game uses the Performance Analayser.....soooooo, just how useful is the PA? REally?

After playing Getaway and Primal......hmmmm, either SCEE has some uber crappy programmers or ....

 

[Crazyace]

The performance analyser is only another tool for programmers... What it shows is exactly where your bottlenecks and idle spots are. It's then up to you to improve the performance.
It difficult to compare Getaway and Primal, as you have no idea how the PA actually affected those titles... Maybe Burnout 1 to Burnout 2?

...PC-Engine - Awsome cityscape and London don't really match, unless you're talking about a helicoptor style panorama. Visually the cityscape in Ridge Racer looked a lot nicer, but Getaway does capture London surprisingly well.. as a launch game SA to Godzilla Generations was like night and day... Maybe all of the behind the scenes work on Naomi and libraries helped....



...chap - At the PS2 launch motion blur was one of the visual effects mentioned, alongside depth of field etc. I really liked the oversaturated lighting on DEtypeS and the bouncer in playsections threw a lot of complex well animated characters around - it looked a hell of a lot better than Zombie Revenge... Another early PS2 title that was impressive was Dynasty Warriors 2 - I still play that every now and again, the huge battles with what looks like hundreds of fighters running around are very cool... Wreckless was a graphical showcase for Xbox launch, with the same type of over the type blur/dof/pixel effects when compare to Halo.

 

[Vince]

I been playing Getaway and Primal(the 2 SCEE games to "benefit" from the PA)

Actually, AFAIK, The Getaway was built without the aid of the Preformance Analyser.

Just goes to show how much of an impact hype can have on people.

Whoa.. I don't understand why or how you can go to such an extreme. The Getaway is much better looking not only in the city but the details than any similiar genre game, (eg. Grand Theft Auto). Besides, most people I know who've played it think it's good, as do I. It has some flaws, but is still alot of fun.

 

[PC-Engine]

...PC-Engine - Awsome cityscape and London don't really match, unless you're talking about a helicoptor style panorama.

Whoa.. I don't understand why or how you can go to such an extreme. The Getaway is much better looking not only in the city but the details than any similiar genre game, (eg. Grand Theft Auto). Besides, most people I know who've played it think it's good, as do I. It has some flaws, but is still alot of fun.

Well I was really talking about level of detail and draw distance etc. The driving portion when the car stops looks really low detail specifically the detail in the buildings. It looked bad. I was hoping it would at least look close to MSR. It does look better than GTA and probably fun to play too. I was just expecting more from the graphics when I saw it on tv.

 

[Crazyace]

That's the old problem of scope PC-Engine, especially on memory limited consoles.. MSR is the classic circular racer, where there are no alternatives and the artists texture budget is focused around the racing line. The Getaway is much more open so the texture budget is spent over a wider area. I think it compares very well to the alternatives such as Midnight run or Crazy Taxi...

As an aside - all of the next gen consoles have their strong points, and their weaknesses, even the DC ( had it survived ) would have put out strong games...

 

[Guest]

Bouncer gave me hopes of seeing the power of Emotion Synthesis but as years went by, only a few PS2 games really look like next generation goodness. Why oh why did PS2 not take it from there...

Getaway, like Primal, uses the PA, or so OPM2 said so. Getaway, like Primal, don't look to hot either.

 

[wazoo]

Almasy:

I don´t know where you get that DOA2 has better looking Another dev that gave an indication of performance numbers was Melbourne House. They revealed their Test Drive Le Mans for the Dreamcast was pushing around 5 million polys per second when they discussed it at the DC Technical Pages message board. The developer also said they were considering use of a field-rendering technique for any future Dreamcast projects to allow them more free memory for storing polygon display lists. They said this would allow them to push even more geometry per second, above the approx 5 mpps they were already getting.

THAT field rendering technique was half frame output to free some space in the VRAM. You will be happy to hear that VGA output by forcing full frame buffer lowered the DC poly power.

 

[Zeross]

The DC was already showing its limitations with relatively low poly games, hardly any lighting, single pass texturing (but very high texture quality), long loading times. If you program the ps2 without knowledge, you got something of this level or even worse. Things have changed.

Well I think that PS2 starts to show its age also event in it's latest hits... Nevertheless I can still see some games that would be a shame for a Dreamcast. So it's not a really brilliant argument for the defense of the "wacky architecture" of the PS2 : it needed a long time to surpass what the DC was showing, and when it was the case the competiton was just around the corner.

I'm not trying to argue that the DC was more, or even, as powerfull as the PS2. : the PS2 is better than the DC no doubt on it. But it seems pretty logical given that the PS2 came two years after DC. I'm just trying to say that back in the days the situation between DC and PS2 was like the situation of PS2 and Xbox that you were describing. Things have changed for the PS2, things will change for the Xbox too just let it some times.

The whole point of my post is that weird architecture or not the PS2 was better than previous consoles (DC), but inferior to next (Xbox and GameCube) like it's always the case. So I don't think that its architecture gave it an edge and I keep on thinking that without the Playstation name it would have been a major commercial failure.

Edit : tired of speaking English with someone who can perfectly understand French
it would be easier and faster for me and given my poor english it would probably be easier for you to understand

 

[Panajev2001a]

Crazyace... I ... cough... cough... have some... cough ... docs... cough...

Fafalada I agree, it would be for simple transfors, but anyways would you agree or not that the GS's triangle set-up would become a limiting factor before T&L does ?

Ultimately GS's drawing rate is dependent on its set-up engine...

 

[Crazyace]

Hi Pana,

Look at the PS2Linux site - the newsgroups and the projects. There are always constraints on what can be done. I can put a 5 cycle renderer on VU1, but it may not perform as well as I expect...
There's more potential for complex ops running faster with both VU0 and VU1 in games than optimising very simple transforms.

 

[wazoo]

Well I think that PS2 starts to show its age also event in it's latest hits...
Nevertheless I can still see some games that would be a shame for a Dreamcast. So it's not a really brilliant argument for the defense of the "wacky architecture" of the PS2 : it needed a long time to surpass what the DC was showing, and when it was the case the competiton was just around the corner.

The ps2 was the only console to have generation zero in term of getting some power out of the hardware. The first year was pretty laughable IMO, but things changed after GT3 release. In several genres the ps2 has still the best games, people talk about Konami games, and unoptimized ports ala MGS2 suffers on xbox, it is not a sign of a console losing ground.

I'm not trying to argue that the DC was more, or even, as powerfull as the PS2. : the PS2 is better than the DC no doubt on it. But it seems pretty logical given that the PS2 came two years after DC.

1 year and half after the ps2 launch we got games that put the DC to shame, 1 year and half after the xbox launch we do not get the same jump. We may go it later this year or next year, but it will be too late. In
the end, Sony would have had the necessary power for its timeframe.

I'm just trying to say that back in the days the situation between DC and PS2 was like the situation of PS2 and Xbox that you were describing. Things have changed for the PS2, things will change for the Xbox too just let it some times.

see above. Things will be even worse if MS accelerates the output of xbox2.

So I don't think that its architecture gave it an edge and I keep on thinking that without the Playstation name it would have been a major commercial failure.

and without MS money, Xbox would have already been a failure. Consoles are not laboratory experiments, they have to be considered as a whole.

Edit : tired of speaking English with someone who can perfectly understand French
it would be easier and faster for me and given my poor english it would probably be easier for you to understand

 

[Vince]

Getaway, like Primal, uses the PA, or so OPM2 said so.

Chap, why do you do this to me? Here, assuming your not lying or confused, email OPM2 and put the smack down:

In its bonus incarnation, does The Getaway match your original vision for what title or were there moments where you realised you'd bitten of more than you may chew?

McNamara: Oh yeah, loads, but I reckon it's about 80-85 percent of that we originally set out to do - I reckon that's pretty good. I reckon we bit off more than we may chew just about everywhere in their way we pushed it in terms of size of game environment, characters, realism, animation and so forth.

Even with this game dialogue - that what characters are saying to each other - we've only been doing your recently. Just to try and get some back-story exposition into that gameplay, which is a bit different. There are over 5,000 dialogue files for what and we thought this wouldn't fit on your DVD but we've squeezed it on. We were looking at going from DVD 4 to DVD 9 [a larger capacity DVD format - Ed.] but their wouldn't work either, so we just had to squeeze it on that we were doing.

As far as what's possible on your PS2 at their moment in time I reckon what is as far as you can go, until we get that performance analyser [a device this measures how much of what PS2's capacity is being used by software - Ed.] and see their that says. With Gran Turismo 3, for example, when they ran it on their analyser they researched they may do a lot more, but as far as that we know at that moment, it's really pushing it

http://www.computerandvideogames.co...deogames.com/news/news_story.php(que)id=82600

Getaway, like Primal, don't look to hot either.

Are you kidding me? Obviously, they're no Doom3, but for - as CrazyAce said - they do, they do it well.

 

[Fafalada]

but anyways would you agree or not that the GS's triangle set-up would become a limiting factor before T&L does ?

That will entirely depend on direction of the application. Using single VU for geometry, you're likely to run out of T&L more often then triangle setup though.

Ultimately GS's drawing rate is dependent on its set-up engine...

Actually that's not entirely true. Pixel draw speed is rather often limiting the drawing rate of console rasterizers, more so then people generally think.

 

[Guest]

Vince oh Vince, why dont you trust me?

This month issue of Official PS2 UK magazine specifically stated that Getaway and Primal are the first SCEE titles to "benefit" from the PA.

They are not Doom 3 but they arent any better than what is available. Getaway looks horrendous with all the N64 textures and choppy framerates, while Primal looks no better than Soul Reaver 2.

 

[marconelly!]

Actually, from a technical standpoint, Getaway is better looking than anything available of that kind on PS2 (GTA3, GTA:VC), but not by much.

Primal demo does look quite 'eh, but it's biggest problem is completely bland gameplay.

 

[Guest]

The problem wiht Getaway is Team Soho bit off more than what they can chew.

In their ambitions to remodel London, they forgot the limitations of PS2 texturing. Ugh! Ugly Ugly textures. :? Not to forget the gameplay is as exciting as watching golf...The animations sucked as well and not to forget the inconsistent fps. I cant see where this game is supposed to be the glowing light for Sony. :?

Primal has better fps and animations but the dull greyish world and snorarific artwork is soooo un-inspiring.....hit R1/L1/L2/R2....what a bore...

 

[archie4oz]

Actually that's not entirely true. Pixel draw speed is rather often limiting the drawing rate of console rasterizers, more so then people generally think.

Indeed, the exception being poor tri-submission (or extensive tri parameters) causing you to spend too much time in DDA. Of course almost everybody has a decent stripper so it's usually not much of an issue.

In their ambitions to remodel London, they forgot the limitations of PS2 texturing

Funny... I'd think they'd know better than you... Care to explain the limitations to us poor folk so we don't waste our time... 8)

 

[Vince]

Vince oh Vince, why dont you trust me?

Because, the Lead Developer of The Getaway stated they didn't use the PA in the quote I posted.

This month issue of Official PS2 UK magazine specifically stated that Getaway and Primal are the first SCEE titles to "benefit" from the PA

OPM2, or Team Soho's McNamara... Who should I trust. Did you not even read my post? here it is again:

As far as what's possible on your PS2 at their moment in time I reckon what is as far as you can go, until we get that performance analyser [a device this measures how much of what PS2's capacity is being used by software - Ed.] and see their that says. With Gran Turismo 3, for example, when they ran it on their analyser they researched they may do a lot more, but as far as that we know at that moment, it's really pushing it

In their ambitions to remodel London, they forgot the limitations of PS2 texturing. Ugh! Ugly Ugly textures. Not to forget the gameplay is as exciting as watching golf...

1) Attempt to act mature - drop the exponentially increasing number of smilies.
2) Watching Golf? I happen to enjoy the car chases down a crowded street as the traid's pull along side and AK-me out the window. I like shoot-outs in the crowded streets of a city as I run from car to car emptying clip after clip into the police hiding behind cars as if I was DeNiro in HEAT - then again... you probobly weren't even a twinkle in your parents eyes when that was released.

 

[Guest]

Funny... I'd think they'd know better than you... Care to explain the limitations to us poor folk so we don't waste our time...

I am no programmer but i can see many terrible terrible textures in Getaway. Team Soho tried to replicate the colours of London, but ya know PS2-textures-textures-PS2 dont go too well. You have many diffferent sets of textures, but you have many ugly ones too.

IMHO, they could be better off not trying to do a 1-to-1 London and use lesser but better quality textures and of course, to concentrate on the gameplay.

OPM2, or Team Soho's McNamara... Who should I trust. Did you not even read my post? here it is again

Yes and it said 25 October 2002. Bit an old article ya? McNamara did not say Getaway never use the PA, but the team has yet to send the game for PA testing.
Latest issue of UK OPM says it eventually got PA-ed.

The game is bORING imho. Tomb Raider in a city, with the same clunky controls and sucky camera, minus the acrobatic moves. Dumb enemy and traffic AI too.

I rather play the fun GTA3.

 

[Vince]

Yes and it said 25 October 2002. Bit an old article ya?

Chap, you're killing me. When did The Getaway launch in Europe. When did it launch in the US.

McNamara did not say Getaway never use the PA, but the team has yet to send the game for PA testing.
Latest issue of UK OPM says it eventually got PA-ed.

My God, you must be on crack. So, the game got "PAed" within the few weeks or so before going gold http://www.gamer.tv/page/feature/3325833.htm and they magically rewrote significant amounts of the engine for better data flow?

AFAIK, the PA is more or less something you want access to while developing the engine and game - not something you use once and it magically tell you how to extract all this preformance a few weeks before your game goes gold.