OK you're back to generalising and demonizing again... wasting my time I should keep my promise about stopping here as its going nowhere other than a blame the palestinians for all their suffering BS...
Oh please. I have been merely addressing your misconceived notions of the guilt of the israelis by addressing where most of the guilty really belongs.
Your first phrase is already bunk. Far more palestinians have died than jews in the intifada... I dont see much in the way of being careful to distinguish normal palestinians from the small radical groups. These groups are growing tho. Completely predictable after 30-40 years of living in a refugee camp with insane unemployment even native american indians havent seen.
Oh really? If this is true it is more than likely linked to the deaths of the Palestinians from their own suicide attacks, wars against the jews, etc. Please don't make it seems as though the jews are some how responsible for righting the mistakes of the palistinians.
Again i have to make the point to you no one but the palis and other arabs are forcing the palis to live in these camps. There are plenty of palistinian arabs living in israel as productive citizens. I mentioned this to you before. Israel is not preventing them from achieving citizenship.
Again had the arabs not attacked the palestinian mandate in 48 and israel in 67/73 most of these refugees wouldn't be refugees.
I am sorry but your flemsy reasoning in support of terrorist groups within refugee camps doesn't fly with me. There is no justification for the murder of the innocent.
These palis need to get their act together and put forth a collective effort to squelch terrorism amongst their ranks. If they truly want peace this is something they should have to do to demonstrate their dedication to peace. They are not doing this by supporting such leaders as Abdullah Kawasme (deceased) and Arafat. Palestinians sit my silently as their leaders manipulate them and their families for political gain often through terrorist violence. There is plenty of evidence for this in their societies.
But not much indicates the terror is supported by the majority. That might change if the occupation lasts for much longer tho. Its alested far too long already. I dont think you grasp the kind of poverty and suffering living in a refugee camp for so long can produce. We are so spoiled in NA we would do same and worse if we had to endure a fraction of what some of these people have endured. A HUGE proportion of the Israeli population on the left and in the peace movement (which isnt only leftists) understands this.
Why is it that these palis remain silent about the terrorist groups within their camps? To me this is nothimg more than a silent condolence of such behavior.
Honestly i am touched by your ability to feel for your fellow man but you must realize the circumstances and the causes for them. If the palis are to be considered trust worthy they are going to have to make a great deal of changes within their personal politics and put aside their bigoted agendas.
Why is it that these palis are so incapable of moving on with their lives? who is forcing them to be in these camps?
Many of the Jews after the holocaust in europe, exiled from their homes, turned to Israel for hope of starting new lives. They have been greatly successful under the circumstances. Many other refugees starting out with nothing have made something of themselves in similiar lengths of time. What is it about these palis that prevents them from being able to move on? Israel from the begining was more than willing to live in peace with its arab neighbors. Unfortunately, the arabs couldn't allow this. Though the mandate of palestine allowed for an arab state one couldn't be created do to the back stabbing acts of Syria et al who felt the land was prime for the taking and felt no remorse over killing their own arab brothers and jews within these lands. Ultimately driving many from their homes.
Had the arabs not attacked Israel in 67/73 they wouldn't have lost the lands they acquired through war nor have created the amount of refugees that currently exist. Who compelled the arabs to attack Israel? What did Israel do to make them want to drive the jews into the sea? Was this not the battle cry of the arabs of the time? What really has changed?
Do you know why they call '73 the Yom Kippur war? Because the arabs felt the need to attack the jews on their high holy day. The reason for this is the arabs knew the Jews would be celebrating and wouldn't be prepared for an attack. This was a malicious and cowardly action.
In the end it cost the arabs more than they bargined for and some how this is the fault of the jews today. The jews did nothing to provoke such an attack and the arabs should receive 100% of the blame for the rammifications.
With this being said i feel Israel's political stance is justified.
These palis live in illegal settlements and aren't protected under Israeli housing laws. The jews aren't forcing them to live their. They live there because they wish not to be apart of israel.
I have spoken to you before about your use of anonimous authorities.
Im not justifying acts of terror against civilians but its obviously a desperate act. The palestinians are destroying their moral standing in the process. They are desperate to break free of the decades long situation. They cant move out of the camps to go elsewhere. They dont trust the Israelis. They ONLY have statehood as an option. Their religious attachment to Jerusalem is obvious.
A desperate act? Murdering innocent children and old men and women is an act of desperation from a peace loving group?
Please address terrorism for what it really is: A bold, cowardly, act of violence aimed at destroying the lives of innocent people for the sake of terror such that a populace can be manipulated.
Many people throughout history have found nonviolent ways of protesting their current circumstances. The indians for example under Ghandi took apon a belief of civil disobedience through nonviolent protest of British powers. This is an example of peaceful protesting in action which serves to demonstrate a schism in value systems between those in india and those in the ME.
Let us for a minute examine the mindset of these pali terrorists. They are funded and supported by much larger terrorist networks aimed at the distruction of Israel. They are spoon fed hateful propaganda day in and day out by their leaders in order to fashion them into murders. These people set aside any sense of the value of humanity when they plan their attacks against innocent children, women, men, the old and infermed. The very basis of their support of terrorism has its roots in their culture, ignorance, and religion.
These acts are out of desperation? No, these acts are out of absolute unadultered hatred.
What you quoted as me offering sympathy for terror is BS. There isnt an once of sympathy for acts of terror against civilians in my statements. There is sympathy and empathy for suffering tho.
Is that so? You have on multiple occassions even within this very post tried to link their murderous actions with some how reasonable and understandable positions. I don't know where you come from but around here we call that sympathy for the cause.
Its called real politik. Im simply observing cause and effect.
Are you? Then realize the effect of terrorism is the lack of an arab palestinian state.
You completely ingore the suffering endured and place al the cause as racism. This is a comtinuing failure of western diplomacy to account for sufferign as casuses for things like terrorism.
No, it is the realization that terrorism is an act of violence against innocents and a complete lack of tolerance for the brutish mindset which supports it.
But its so clearly linked as to make it a childs play to observe it happen time and time again. Diplomacy 101. Fuck over your neighbor and he'll fuck you over... back and forth. Simple as that. Looking for the chicken or the egg in hundreds of years of history is insane...
Except demonstratably the Arabs lost what they had by their own doings. If they never attacked the palestinian mandate or Israel they wouldn't be in the position they are now. Why should they continue to punish Israel for their continuing violent behavior over the decades? Should Israel have backed down to them and allowed them to walk all over them?
What caused these attacks? Nothing more than Arab bigotry. Who are you to say such random attacks won't ever happen again? Israel has to defend itselfs against such possibilities.
You obviously dont watch the same news as I do. Palestinian kids gets shot dead regularly and more have died than jewish kids..
Is this some fault of Israel? Are you suggesting they some how didn't provoke being shot? I don't believe more Palestinian kids have died then those in israel at all. how many of those who have died have been directly linked to terrorism or violence which caused their death?
Jews again contradict what you say.
Oh please, Who are you to inform me about what all jews believe? Don't even try to tell me the vast majority of jews agree with your position ergo you are correct. That is an ad popullum fallacy that completely avoids the topics which i have discussed. If you want to debate then do so by discussing the information i have present not by trying to convince me that you are some how correct because an anonimous mass agrees with your position.
I don't recall sympathy having to be justified by reason or fact. Having sympathy isn't an admittion of guilt.
There was ethnic cleansing of many of the arabs in palestine and before the arabs attacked. Palestinian jews and arabs had lived in peace for centuries, heck millenia, until the exodus from europe.
You are repeating this again when i refuted already? There are plenty of examples of ethnic cleansing of jews by the muslims following their arrival in the ara of palestine in 636 AD (medina is another good example). What exactly are you refering to? Can you point out to me specifics? During the time of the European exodus the Arabs were attacking the jews and murdering many of the settlers in absurd numbers. If you believe these arabs were peaceful you have been terribly mislead. The Hashomer (the watch) was created to protect these jewish migrants from the arab raiders. They weren't marching around mass slaughtering Arabs as you seem to be claiming. They attacked specific targets: arab raiders. The Haganah which came from the Hashomer latter became apart of their official army.
What exactly are you claiming? That these "poor" jewish migrants were slaughtering arabs? Do you have any historical links to this?
Again what egypt and jordan and syria did shouldnt have to reflect on palestinians.
Why not? They helped put the palis in the position they are in today!
Do the jordanians owe them as well?
Hell yes they do.
Yes but peace with those nations with Israel didnt take into account any palestinian issues. The Israelis are not interested in seeing peace deals reopened by palestinians who want part of the east bank of the jordan.
I don't know if that is true nor would i penelaze them for their reluctants.
I expect them to ask tho once they have recieved statehood... but I doubt any large player will pay any attention... If some kind of peace is finally found they will want to set it down with an iron clad deal of no more demjands on any side..
I highly doubt this will happen do to the obvious unwillingness of palistinians to cooperate. They have continuously botched peace talks going back father than the oslow accords. They could have had their own state long ago.
You know ultimately your grossly unbalanced view of the situation which like I said isnt shared by most of the world offers no solution. Heck I find your position to the far right of Likud.
Obviously i have demonstrated a very keen knowledge of what is happening over in the ME and i don't need your approval to realize i know what i am talking about.
More along the lines of some of the small far right israeli parties... So if you are intersted in solutions give us some. If your solutions is for all terrorism to stop before any peacemeal offering can be made to the palestinians in the occupied territories then its bogus and a catch 22... you know it cant be lived up to. I think all you really want is for Israel to retain the westbank and ethnically cleanse the Muslims there a 2nd time. Where to? God only knows...
You have yet to even address specifics pax. I don't consider you credible. Your obvious inability to do so is telling as is your constant need to associate me with some kind of extremist position. Is this the only way you know how to minimize my standing?
Could you please explain to me why Israel should trust these palis after all the arabs have put them throught. The Israelis have earned the right to be skittish.
Are you so deluded into thinking there were no arabs in Palestine even though their 3rd most holy site was there??
Are you so deluded you have to take my words out of context completely? Did i say there were no arabs there? No i said the concensus suggested a very small number. This invalidates many of the arab claims to the land. The Israel have never wanted to restrict these Arabs without reason.
Is there really that much a diff tween an nomadic arab in Galileean pastures vs one with a fixed address in the cities has no right to continue living there?
A great deal of difference when you consider ownership of land. Does passing through palistine some how make them joint owners of the land?
Ive offered my solution. Israel must vacate the territories first. Its neither complete nor total. But its a huge step on the way to reducing both the terror that Israeli military cant seem to fully stop (unless it wants the Israeli economy to shed its entire palestinian workforce).
You haven't provided any substantive evidence for such claims. As i have suggested to you violence within the Arab communities against Israel has gone on before then Israelis repossessed these lands.
Pax are you completely unaware as to how Jordan, Syria and Egypt acquired these lands? They took them during war. They were conquests. If they have legitimate claims to these lands then so does Israel by taking them in their conquest.
On the Palestinian side they must work to reduce the terrorism once they have gotten the means to do so... That means statehood with economic and policing means at their disposal.
No. The evidence of reduction of terrorism must come first if they are to validate their claims. Right now they are not in the position to claim any peaceful motives. Work first rewards latter.
The palestinians KNOW they wont have any real statehood until Israel feels safe. They KNOW israel isnt going anywhere. They are a lot more pragmatist than you give them credit.
Really? Then why are they so reluctant to aid in the removal of terrorist leaders and supportors? Why is it so hard to motivate them to do the right thing? If they truly grasped the concept and value of peace then they should realize the intimidating factor an ocean of arabs has on the island of israel. Israel shouldn't be the ones to be forced to make all these sacrifices. If these arabs cared why are they so uninterested in helping the palis? WHy? because they make much better political puppets where they are now.
How can you say history sint on my side? There si no history quoted in your rejecttion neither in palestine (as no history can be found of Israel making any real concessions to Palestinians) nor can I think of another example outside the situation in world history.
Did i not mention to you the basis of the formation of the Hashomer and Haganah? Did i not mention the arab raiders or how Egypt, Syria and Jordan acquired lands from the palistinian mandate? Did i not mention to you the affects of the 67/73 wars? I would have to say there is much history in and reason in objecting to the notion of palis and their suposed peaceful motives.