Why Arabs Lose Wars

i mean who exterminated the Red Indians >? / The Austrailian Natives the Aboriginals/ the Maori people of New Zealand and slavery in Africa.

Nobody exterminated the Red Indians, or the Aborigines or the Maoris. Slavery in Africa was going on long before the Europeans came along, we just happened to do it better than the locals.

But as others have repeated, try and learn from the mistakes of the past. Violence only begets violence
 
the whole problem with the middle east was very well stared by Israeli- God promised them that land. The core of jeudaism is a belief that they are somehow superior to all others, and, while many Jew's have changed their beliefs to simply "chosen by God" rather "God's real children," it still remains probably the largest factor in Israeli foreign relations. So, Israeli's are better than everyone else because God chose them and then he promised them this land..... *that* is the problem and there will continue to be a problem until Israeli's change their views to become more accepting of other people. The arabs fight because of the way the Israeli's treat them, and once that changes then they will realize that they don't need to fight. I support the arabs fight (but not the terrorism) because they are trying to be treated justly. I also supported the Viet Cong because they were fighting for their homes, and their right to vote to become communist. I am a native american (see, we weren't all killed) and a woman, I understand what it's like to be opressed.
 
epicstruggle said:
2 things:
-more native americans died from diseases brought by the europeans, than by forced relocation. (diseases were also taken back to europe.)

Com'on epic....everybody know what killed (cleansed) Red Indians!!

Europeans are the worst offenders of ethnic cleansing in human history....

Red Indians, Mayans, Aztecs, and other Central and South American tribes were made to dissapear from planet by their European invaders.....the kind of things Europeans did in Asia/Africa....Hitler pales in comparison!
 
Sage, are you really oppressed? You cannot claim victimhood simply because your ancestors were oppressed. No one is force-relocating indians today, or killing off the food supply. See any "no Indian's welcome" signs? Anyone lynching you? Can white people even tell you are native american? My half brother and sister (different father) are half indian and look totally white. Most indians I have seen cannot be distuished by white people between mongolians or mexicans.



And by the way, the Palestinians who are citizens of Israel are treated way more justly than Palestinians in any other Arab state (including freedom of expression, right to vote, etc). If you look at polls of opinion in Israeli and in Arab countries, Jews say that coexistence in a two state solution is possibly, Arabs by and large reject it and have been rejecting it since 1948.

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Pew Survey said:
More broadly, the postwar survey asked people their views on the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians. By wide margins, most Muslim populations doubt that a way can be found for the state of Israel to exist so that the rights and needs of the Palestinian people are met. Eight-in-ten residents of the Palestinian Authority express this opinion. But Arabs in Israel, who voice the same criticisms of U.S. policy in the Middle East as do other Muslims, generally believe that a way can be found for the state of Israel to exist so that Palestinian rights and needs are addressed. In fact, Arabs in Israel are nearly as likely as Jews to hold that opinion (62% of Arabs, 68% of Jews).

Outside of the Muslim world, there is general agreement that there is a way to ensure Israel's existence and meet the needs of Palestinians. This view is widely shared in North America and Western Europe.

Fact is, Jews were there, like Native Americans, before the Arabs. Jews returning to Israel is like native americans reclaiming part of the US and wanting to have their own sovereign state within it. Arabs colonized the area after 600 AD. (of course, the area was conquered many times before that by egyptians, assyrians, greeks, jews, etc)

I support the two state solution, but let's be frank. The jews live on a miniscule plot of land in a huge ocean of arabs. Most of Jordan was part of Palestine, and if the Arabs in 1948 had chosen co-existence and allowed the Jews to have this tiny portion of land in all of the middle east for themselves, and if they had taken care of war refugees properly, alot of this problem wouldn't exist.

It is in fact, the rejectionism of the Arabs over the last 50 years, and their inability to help Palestinian refugees at all that contributed greatly to the current problem. You say Israeli is the one unwilling to accept a compromise. I say it is the Arab league.


Don't forget, up until Anwar Sadat visited Israeli, it was the stated mission of Arab League states to eradicate Israel off the map and push "jews into the sea"

And I just dare you to pick up an Arab textbook and look at its description of Jews vs Jewish descriptions of Arabs and see which is more realistic and friendly.

p.s. the viet cong never voted for communism. They had no vote of any kind. And if they desired anything at the beginning, it was simply independence, a nationalist movement. Peasants weren't exactly demanding to be collectivized into farms. The only reason they were on the Soviet side was the assistance of the US into the indo-china war with France gave them no alternative but to run to another superpower for help. If FDR had heard Ho Chi Minh's plea and instead supported independence against French wishes, Vietnam would have been a much more mellow place.
 
Deepak said:
Hitler pales in comparison!

Nope, most of the deaths came from disease, forced relocation, and destruction of the ecosystem. It just doesn't compare to slave labor camps followed by summary execution.

It's more comparable to Stalin's starvation of the Ukranians.
 
DemoCoder said:
Deepak said:
Hitler pales in comparison!

Nope, most of the deaths came from disease, forced relocation, and destruction of the ecosystem. It just doesn't compare to slave labor camps followed by summary execution.

It's more comparable to Stalin's starvation of the Ukranians.

What do you think Spanish/Portugese did in South and Central America??
 
Early on they took slaves in the African sense, but later on, they paid the slaves wages (along with forced Christianization), but that experience was wholly different in the US where the Spaniards implemented the Franciscian mission system and argued for Indians rights in general.

None of this can be compared to the treatment of the Jews. With the Nazi's, the plan was to EXTERMINATE the Jews. The Spaniards had no such interest. They were opportunists. They simply wanted the gold, and wanted workers. They did not have an implicit racial hatred of the natives to the point where they could not tolerate their existence. At best, they wanted to convert them.

There were military massacres yes, but like I said, most of those killed died of side causes from the conquest, rather than a deliberate extermination plan.


You frequently try this tact Deepak, trying to promote some kind of moral inferiority of Europeans based on your historical experience of British rule, but what the British did to India wasn't anywhere close to what the Jews endure, and wasn't any more unjust than what what already being done themselves by their feudalism, and I would argue that the British didn't finish the job. They should have wiped out the silly caste system as well.
 
Caste system is as bad as discrimination on the basis of color! and whether British in India/Africa or Spaniards in South America....the fact is Europeans committed worst crimes in human history! I dont think anyone can argue that colonialism was good in any sense!
 
Well, I posted an article on exactly how it was good for India. Sometimes, an external force, even unintentional, can upset a situation that had been stagnant for a long term and be a force for positive change, albeit creative destruction.

But I take issue with trying to keep scores on history's biggest criminals. The bible records tons of massacres for example, and deliberate crimes against children and women. Unfortunately, unlike those the Europeans committed crimes against, those people were completely exterminated and are no longer around.

Lest you have an incomplete view of history, I advise you to look up what the Arabs did during their expansionism. Don't forget to count the number of Armenians and Kurds cleansed on your way. Do you cry a tear for the peoples the Egyptians exterminated?

(BTW, to have a proper scoring, you will have to scale by world population. e.g. a massacre 4000 years ago to a native culture was far more devastin to that culture's survival than today. Also since disease spreads more quickly in large populations, totals will be higher)
 
IIRC the Mayans were already dead by the time the Spanish turned (they killed themselves off effectively), as for the others (Aztecs and other central American Tribes), well that was mainly disease foreign to those shores. It wasn't the fault of the Spanish.

trying to compare it to Hitler is extremely annoying and totally incorrect. Yes what the Spansih did wasn't 'nice' by today's standards, but it never occured today and neither did any of the other accusations.

Fact is the world, by and large, is trying to learn from it's mistakes. It's a good thing to remember and learn from what went wrong.

I dare say EVERY culture in the world has skeletons in the closest when it comes to the modern definition of 'human rights'.
 
Demo:

I am also a woman, a homosexual, and a transsexual (altho you can tell that one by looking). I am *heavily* discriminated against, especially being that I live in the "Bible Belt" where there are many churches where women are not allowed to participate in any way other than to be a member.

Also, the "south vietnamese" army took up arms against their own people because it was obvious that they were going to vote communist and join with N Vietnam, and so they stopped the peacful process of change by vote. That wasn't a revolution, that was oppression.
 
Actually many of people on strategypage have written telling responses to the bogus claims of the palestinians. I would appreciate if some of you would read them.

http://strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/36-9650.asp
http://strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/36-9639.asp
http://strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/36-9711.asp

Why should anyone blame Israel? Did they force anyone from their homes? How? The Arabs attacked the Jews first. The Jews were more than willing to live peacefully with their arab neighbors. Jews aren't forcing ANYONE from their homes except illegal settlers.

During '48 the land which was palestine was invaded by other neighboring arabs who forced their brethern from their homes.

Israel has fought to get back land that was once apart of its mandate as Palestine.

What of Jews forced from their lands in neighboring Arab countries of Jordan and Syria? Why doesn't anyone mention this? Why won't anyone give their land back? Why won't other arab nations help the arab refugees the way the jews were willing to help each other?

What about the poor Byzantine Greeks? The Ottoman Arabs stole most of those lands from them. Shouldn't the Arabs give something back?

Did you know there are over 1 million Arab citizens in Israel who live there peacefully protected by law? The Jews aren't discouraging Palestinian citizenship.

How did the massive influx of jews force arabs out of their lands? There were hardly any arabs there at the time. The land was mostly poor and improperly farmed.

http://strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/36-9678.asp

To say the Jews are unwilling to comprimise is ludicrous. They have been working for years to achieve peace with the arab states and have even offered to give the land which was rightfully theirs back to the arab states who stole it during '48. Look at the Oslow Accords! It appears everytime peace agreements are close to being reached the arab terrorists botch something up.

Between the Jews and Arabs NO moral equivalency can be drawn.
 
Also, the "south vietnamese" army took up arms against their own people because it was obvious that they were going to vote communist and join with N Vietnam, and so they stopped the peacful process of change by vote. That wasn't a revolution, that was oppression.


I am confused. Should a majority have the right to vote away the rights of a minority? Should the minority accept this? Comunism isn't a good choice for any country. Communism "works" by oppression.
 
now you're getting into the specific politics of one system vs another system. I could point out a LOT of flaws with the united states system. It's hypocritical to support the right to vote only if the people vote for what you believe to be better.
 
the thing im most suprised at is the fact that there havent been any israeli suicide bombers. anyone else wonder that too.

later,
 
Sage said:
Demo:

I am also a woman, a homosexual, and a transsexual (altho you can tell that one by looking). I am *heavily* discriminated against, especially being that I live in the "Bible Belt" where there are many churches where women are not allowed to participate in any way other than to be a member.

Well, I asked because I highly doubt that native americans face the kinds of oppression that is talked about when blacks and hispanics talk about it. Native Americans have a "good minority" status like Asians. No one, on sight of an Asian or Native American thinks "drug addict", "criminal", "violent", "better walk on the other side of the street at night", etc.

Moreover, native americans have even more stereotype pluses than Asians. They have the addition feature that they are "Noble", "In tune with Nature", and of course, to be mourned because of their history.


Yes, you are discriminated against, but it is because of your sexual orientation and gender identity, not your race. (BTW, I'm not clear, are you saying you are a female to male transsexual or male to female transsexual? You said woman, which I assume means, born a genetic woman, live as man)

My advice: save up your money and move to the bay area. In particular, San Francisco. Let's put it this way: last week we had an offsite company get together where people brang their families, kids, wives/husbands, etc. Two people in our group brought same-sex partners. No one raised an eyebrow or whispered gossip. Our company even extends health benefits and other things to dosmetic partners.

Also, the "south vietnamese" army took up arms against their own people because it was obvious that they were going to vote communist and join with N Vietnam, and so they stopped the peacful process of change by vote. That wasn't a revolution, that was oppression.

First of all, North Vietnam didn't vote Ho Chi Minh into power, he assumed it. It was assumed later he would win the election, but he usurped power in the beginning. Secondly, Ho was supported because of his status as having liberated vietnam from the French, not because the people were voting communist, and because Diem was such a bastard. They were voting for a leader, against another leader, not for a political ideology. Even today in Western countries, people vote on charisma and strength. Third, the USSR and China were conducting massive intel programs to influence the "fair" election.

Perhaps if Ho had never fought the French military, eventually they would have gotten their independence anyway in time.
 
Sage said:
now you're getting into the specific politics of one system vs another system. I could point out a LOT of flaws with the united states system. It's hypocritical to support the right to vote only if the people vote for what you believe to be better.

No it isn't. What you are suggesting is ridiculous. We aren't talking about support a mere political difference of opinion. We are dicussing the dismemberment of the entire political structure. The US system allows people to other throw the government if it weren't justly supporting the country. People have the right to protest what they feel is unjust. These are just parts of foundational layers of our goverment.

The issue remains. Should the majority have the right to vote away the rights of the people of the nation?

i suppose in a group of three if two wolves vote to eat the sheep it is hypocritical of the sheep to disagree.
 
DemoCoder said:
Well, I asked because I highly doubt that native americans face the kinds of oppression that is talked about when blacks and hispanics talk about it. Native Americans have a "good minority" status like Asians. No one, on sight of an Asian or Native American thinks "drug addict", "criminal", "violent", "better walk on the other side of the street at night", etc.

Moreover, native americans have even more stereotype pluses than Asians. They have the addition feature that they are "Noble", "In tune with Nature", and of course, to be mourned because of their history.
Uuhhh, the ones I hear about from my relatives in New Mexico are "drunks" and "lazy".

And in Houston, the Vietnamese have their own gangs. The ones I've known (that were borderline gangmembers) were pretty much thugs and petty thieves.

I think there's plenty of racial stereotyping that goes around.
 
The issue remains. Should the majority have the right to vote away the rights of the people of the nation?

Does this question even make any sense? What could possibly stop a majority from doing syuch a thing if its mind was really set upon it whether there was a democratic system in place or not?

You can deny the majority some weak desire but its very hard to deny it some strongly felt ones such as the desire for a charismatic but autocratic leader to assume power. These things are sad but its better to worry about what leads to them then to try and stop them after the causes has long been set in motion to bring it about.
 
Well people like me most certainly do not want to see a palestinain state, and i most certainly dont want arabs in israel. Israel was made specifically for the Jewish people not for the Hindus/muslims/christians.

i would also like to add that america should help us kill more arabs in the west bank because they are all terrorists.

The fact is america seems to think that they can tell us what to do and what not to do, the jews run america, the jews run the world and you people know it.

There are people how make sure that Jewish interests remain the most important, eg Albright is a jew/ Rumsfeld is a jew/ Willain Cohen was a jew need i go on ?
 
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