What framerate will next-gen target? *spawn

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by milk, May 7, 2018.

?

What framerates will next-gen games target?

  1. VRR (Variable Refresh Rate)

    15 vote(s)
    30.6%
  2. 30ps

    23 vote(s)
    46.9%
  3. 60ps

    26 vote(s)
    53.1%
  4. 90fps

    1 vote(s)
    2.0%
  5. 120fps

    1 vote(s)
    2.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
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    No-one was limiting it from the discussion.

    Yes, motion impacts graphics. But if we use the term 'graphics' to include everything regarding the images on screen, we no longer have a word to talk about the pixel quality. So when talking about computer graphics, we divide it into 'resolution', 'framerate', and 'graphics', just for the sake of being able to talk about the thing. ;) Saying 'better graphics, worse framerate' just means higher pixel information, and not 'better computer graphics' as if the framerate doesn't affect the final total graphical package.

    I agree with that. I've asked on this board if 4K set owners find 1080p60 is sharper than 4K30 because of motion fidelity and the issue wiih motion resolution on TVs. I'd take 1080p60 over 4K30 for sure. (I prefer 60 fps gaming by and large, and would happily take 120+ fps. In the past on PC I've general reduced quality to get a decent framerate, but when that's not possible, I've tried to get the best quality at stable 30 fps).
     
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  2. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
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    Don't some sets handle 30 fps at 120 fps and use BFI, just duplicating frames?
     
  3. OCASM

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    1) And some people would like donuts raining from the sky. What's your point?

    2) Nah.

    3) I don't even know what you're arguing for or against anymore. Certainly not any points I made.

    Let me re-state my position then, sir: framerate is an intrinsic part of the visual presentation of a game, so 30fps leads to a significantly worse visual experience than 60fps. To have so many AAA console games targeting 30fps in 2018 is simply disgraceful.

    It's as if framerate directly impacts the perception of detail any time there's motion. Seems like more than just a performance metric. Mhh...
     
    #263 OCASM, Jun 24, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2018
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  4. Scott_Arm

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    Maybe? I know definitely at 60Hz

    Edit: actually yes for sure. My tv will do it, but not in game mode, and it probably has over 100ms of input lag. That's why it's only good for movies, but your display brightness is halved.

    There may be newer sets that will do iin game mode. I'm pretty sure I've seen some on rtings, but I don't know how many.
     
    #264 Scott_Arm, Jun 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
  5. Recop

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    Ok, this is my last answer because this discussion is boring...

    1) You said that Nintendo had an anti-consumer behaviour with ZWW. I said that this claim is based on nothing except your fantasy. The Switch isn't powerful enough to run the game at 1080p/60fps. They prefered a higher graphical quality and that's their choice... end of the discussion.

    2) No evidence to support your claim. As usual, you speak in the vacuum.

    3) You said this : "What's the advantage of impercetible higher polycounts on objects that pass you by in an instant?"

    Yet ND disagrees with you since, outside of remasters, all their games run at 30fps this gen. Once again, end of the discussion. Your claims are crushed by facts. This gen, 30fps games still are very popular among developers and people still buy them.

    Now you can discuss during 100 years about the framerate, nobody cares... only the market tell us what's relevant or not... if 30fps games sell well, then they are revelant. Case closed.

    A small read for you anyway : https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/insomniac-60fps-no-more
     
    #265 Recop, Jun 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
  6. Scott_Arm

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    Well, League of Legends and Fortnite have a combined 300-500 (?) million players, so I guess the market doesn't care about realism. Guess we shouldn't bother talking about it.
     
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  7. Recop

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    Fortnite was popular even at 30fps. LOL is a PC game... this means that the game can be played at any framerate... not to mention that they are F2P...

    And please, compare what's comparable. Do you have evidence that non-multiplayer 60fps games sell better than 30fps games ?

    All evidence we have tend to say otherwise... compare FH6 to FH3 or MG5 to ACO... also, the most hyped games this E3 won't run at 60fps...

    Personally, i'm not making any claim. To me both framerate are relevant according to the type of game. I'm not saying that one is stricly superior to another. My opinion is really simple : it's to developers to decide what's the best for their game. And if they were wrong, they will see it in terms of sales. As simple as that.
     
    #267 Recop, Jun 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
  8. Scott_Arm

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    I don't disagree that developers can decide to make their game however they want. Why should a next-gen console only be designed around non-multiplayer games?
     
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  9. Recop

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    Consoles aren't designed to hit a specific framerate. They are designed to get the best possible power/price ratio.

    The Switch has an even weaker CPU than the PS4/XB1, yet many games run at 60fps.

    If you see more 60fps games next-gen, it will not be because the new consoles have a better design, but only because developers feel that a 30fps target is not worth it anymore...

    Developers make 60fps possible, not the hardware, that's why you had 60fps games on PS1.
     
    #269 Recop, Jun 24, 2018
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  10. Shifty Geezer

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    Yes. No-one's ever suggested otherwise - it's an obvious point that generally doesn't need stating.
    Subjective. For plenty, the visual experience of better graphics over better framerate is preferable, certainly in some genres.
     
  11. OCASM

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    1) Yes, that's what I said, it's their choice. If they had wanted to make 60fps the priority they could have chosen to do so.

    2) You don't want to see the truth, that's up to you.

    3) You didn't explain actually address my point. You're simply saying "Naughty Dog does it so you're wrong".

    4) Once again you're arguing against a strawman. Nobody said 30fps games don't sell or that are irrelevant. What we're arguing against is the idea that 60fps cause worse sales / revenue, which is one of the excuses you gave as to why so many AAA games are 30fps on consoles. That's been proven wrong so of course you're dishonestly switching to fighting a strawman.

    You're confusing preference with facts. It is a fact that 4K produces a sharper picture than 1080p but some people might prefer the softness of the latter or even lower resolutions. Same with framerate, it is a fact that a higher framerate produces not only a better sense of dynamics but it significantly enhances the perceived quality of the graphics™ during motion (so most of the time) as shown by @Scott_Arm . Still, some people prefer the enhanced quality of the graphics™ during mostly static scenes or even like the cinematic feel of the framerate.
     
  12. Recop

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    Where did i gave this excuse ?

    But you said : "The industry seems to disagree with me but not really, they know 60fps is better but they withold it for the "remastered" version so people have to buy the game twice."

    Which is pure bullshit... they know nothing since they continue to make a lot of 30fps games. 60fps is only better in your mind...

    For reasonnable people like me, 60fps is far superior only when everything is equal, something that never happens on console. Case closed.

    Also, based on the industry behaviour, indeed 60fps seems to cause worse sales in some field and better sales in other ones.

    Developers are rational people. Most of multplayer games tend to run at 60fps. So we can reasonnably assume that a higher framerate is important and positive in this type of game. Inversely, there are very few 60fps single player games. So we can reasonnably assume that this impacts negatively the sales and that better graphics have a better influence on sales.

    It's a logical and basic hypothesis based on empirical data...

    And ? Does that mean Nintendo is anti-consumer ? Where's your proof for that ? Stop to speak in the vacuum...
     
    #272 Recop, Jun 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
  13. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
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    I do, though this is largely due more to "feel" than look. Wouldn't have to make this choice if the PC GPU situation weren't so jacked up. :evil:
     
  14. OCASM

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    You don't even remember what you said in you previous message:

    "OK, this is my last reply..."

    :lol:

    They can continue to make 30fps games because 60fps is the low hanging fruit they can use to get consumers to buy the game again a generation later ;)

    "We can reasonable assume..."

    There it is, no proof that a higher framerate hurts sales, just your fallacious assumptions ;)
     
  15. BRiT

    BRiT Verified (╯°□°)╯
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    This is why we can't have nice things.

    This thread has devolved into yet another shit-pile similar to the graphics comparison threads. It no longer serves any useful purpose.
     
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