What exactly is a "Console Game"? (on handhelds)

[Nesh]

My apologies good sir, it seems i didn't quite get the gist of your original response. Please forgive me if my tone was a bit bad too, it very much wasn't intended.

I did say that i liked your definition though and thought it was the most sensible of the lot that i've heard. Now i fully understand what it was you were saying i fully agree with you that i don't very much see any "straight ports" of console games onto NGP in future at all.... Well i bloody well hope not ;-)

Everything is possible anyways

 

[dobwal]

I don't know how other people define a "console game" on a handheld, but I define it as a game where the developer simply takes a console game or concept and shoehorns it into a handheld port.

The GTA franchise is a perfect example of this. While I am sure many enjoyed LCS and VCS, I for one find them crude in comparsion to Chinatown Wars. CW was designed as a handheld title, ditching the blocky polygon models, texture and 3d enviroment for a cell based top down enviroment. I found CW to be more aesthetically pleasing from a visual standpoint and a better representation of what a GTA game should be on a portable handheld.

And while I loved MGSO on the PSP, I can't ignore that Portable Ops ended up creating a feeling for me of wishing it had been giving a full console treatement. Going from the lush and wonderful CG cutscenes thats a big component of MGS on console to storyboard cutouts represented a disappointment. It is the equivalent of Konami releasing a 1080p MGS movie on BluRay then turning around and releasing its successor as a comic book. There was nothing in the game that made me appreciate it as a portable title.

I have fond memories of playing Chinatown and games like KZ:Liberation because their developers didn't try to make design conservative titles that came off as poor impressions of their console brethren. I see games like MGSO and GTA:VCS as titles define by their console counterparts and thus restricted and limited in their potential.

What the PSP, Android and IOS has allowed me to realize is that while I have fully appreciated the evolution of gaming, old school gameplay and mechanics are still as fun as they were decades ago. You all may want to see a Uncharted on the NGP that plays and looks similar to Uncharted on the PS3. But I rather see a fun, different and unique experience that captures the Uncharted franchise spirit or the return of Contra/original Metal Gear that blends current day technology and design with old school gameplay. Portables are the perfect platform for this exploration and alternative experience.

 

[Danalys]

I see it as similar to what the distinction between computer and video games used to be. On consoles you'd get Mario cart and F zero, on computer Geoff Cramond simulation racing games. Over time they've diversified their content to include both. It's also a similar distinction that makes something a Live/PSN game. Which are shorter, cheaper and less complicated versions of traditional game types.

 

[Colourless]

I'd suggest the meaning will really just have to do with the amount of time you'd feel compelled to dedicate to the game. If you'd feel like you have made little accomplishment in 30mins-1hour then it's probably too console ish, even if that is complete nonsense

 

[Prophecy2k]

I don't know how other people define a "console game" on a handheld, but I define it as a game where the developer simply takes a console game or concept and shoehorns it into a handheld port.

The GTA franchise is a perfect example of this. While I am sure many enjoyed LCS and VCS, I for one find them crude in comparsion to Chinatown Wars. CW was designed as a handheld title, ditching the blocky polygon models, texture and 3d enviroment for a cell based top down enviroment. I found CW to be more aesthetically pleasing from a visual standpoint and a better representation of what a GTA game should be on a portable handheld.

And while I loved MGSO on the PSP, I can't ignore that Portable Ops ended up creating a feeling for me of wishing it had been giving a full console treatement. Going from the lush and wonderful CG cutscenes thats a big component of MGS on console to storyboard cutouts represented a disappointment. It is the equivalent of Konami releasing a 1080p MGS movie on BluRay then turning around and releasing its successor as a comic book. There was nothing in the game that made me appreciate it as a portable title.

I have fond memories of playing Chinatown and games like KZ:Liberation because their developers didn't try to make design conservative titles that came off as poor impressions of their console brethren. I see games like MGSO and GTA:VCS as titles define by their console counterparts and thus restricted and limited in their potential.

What the PSP, Android and IOS has allowed me to realize is that while I have fully appreciated the evolution of gaming, old school gameplay and mechanics are still as fun as they were decades ago. You all may want to see a Uncharted on the NGP that plays and looks similar to Uncharted on the PS3. But I rather see a fun, different and unique experience that captures the Uncharted franchise spirit or the return of Contra/original Metal Gear that blends current day technology and design with old school gameplay. Portables are the perfect platform for this exploration and alternative experience.

I do see what you mean here, but on the other hand i also see the opportunity for both types of experences on NGP and 3DS. If you define "console-like handheld games" as console franchises shoehorned onto a handheld port (with the obvious compromises) then surely you must be able to see that at least with NGP, the compromises don't need to be even half as dire as they were when taking PS3 games and shoehorning them into PSP ports?

I also like the idea that portable handhelds should allow "old school" gmaeplay styles and genres to thrive on them too. I'd love to see a return of the space flight sim... games like a HD colony wars would make the perfect "return to form" on a handheld like the NGP, and may even be a much less risky venture for the publishers as people would generally have lower expectations in terms of graphics on a handheld platform (see DS, iOS etc etc), and thus should make the games cheaper to make.

I'd also love to see a side-scrolling Uncharted game in the vein of "Flashback" or "Out of this World"... i reckon that would work exceedingly well. Alot of old school, long dead game genres could make a return on handhelds, and would also benefit the industry as a whole by allowing publishers to see that there's actually a demand that exists for games outside of the TPS & FPS genre ;-)

Faux Edit: Sorry if that was a tad off-topic

 

[Bigduo209]

Spoiler

Kids have also changed, nowadays they want a iphone/ipod just as much if not more than a dedicated handheld gaming device. I don't see kids wanting a NGP to carry around in a backpack...NGP will be a hard sell.

The only few things that stop this from selling well to kids will be the NGP's price and games line-up. If the price is too high parents won't take the financial hit to buy it, even on the holidays. Of course the games have to be there, but the games themselves also have to make a clear statement to why they should be purchased in the first place (not just because they exist at launch).

Spoiler

Save states should help in terms of pick up and play.

It could definitely help, however the games should be (to a certain degree) designed for the short bursts of gameplay for a handheld. The state-save feature should only be relied on as a universal rest function for NGP games, not a full-on crutch for every developer who wants to forget that design ideology since the feature is there.

Spoiler

I dont think the problem with the PSP was "console games" per se. I think the problem was lack of originality. It had the same franchises as the PS2, with almost identical gameplay while lacking the same fidelity as its console counterparts. Many games felt like rehashes. Games unavailable on the PS2 (old or new) released on the PSP would have been better in giving the PSP an identity of its own. Thats why I begun enjoying more old school console games on it than the new games. Emulation homebrew was a godsent
But the PSP games wer like playing the same games twice, if you already owned a PS2. It also begun to get PS2 ports and the PS2 begun getting PSP ports. It eliminated any differentiating factor.
The DS could get away with it because it was getting older versions of console games, new games, games that didnt feel like the current gen console games and the touch screen made the experience different

Strangely though that wasnt much of a problem during the 8 bit and 16 bit days. But games were simpler then and appeared like different versions because the performance difference forced the developers to make gameplay changes on the handheld iterations

I know that's how I feel about the PSP's early line-up and I hope doesn't happen to the NGP. The statement of how easy it is to port a game over to the NGP quickly gives me that reason to question how developers will make NGP games in the long run (especially if the long run isn't long enough).

Spoiler

I would define a 'console game' as a port of a game from a console, or of comparable scope of games on a console.

The problem with the PSP, and I'll gladly restate them, wasn't so much that console games on a handheld were a problem. GTA on PSP was highly popular, as was Monster Hunter. However, many games that were ported suffered because the PSP had some weaknesses that developers either didn't bother or didn't manage to compensate for. There were load-times for instance from UMD, which could get pretty atrocious with some games. There were also controls issues, where the lack of a second analog stick couldn't be sufficiently compensated for, and even the analog nub that was on there wasn't terribly comfortable to use (I agree with this - removed the disc by the way and use the mini stick that's holding that in place, which is slightly easier for me to control). Even the d-pad and the shoulder buttons weren't quite the quality of that on the dualshock3. Early on battery life with heavy UMD use was also sometimes a little too low for many people's tastes.

I will defend my PSP and its games for a long time, because there are enough examples showing that a 'console game' on a handheld works just fine. Tekken, Burnout, Ridge Racer, WipeOut, GTA, Daxter, there are plenty of good examples.

However, the limits were mostly load-times and controls. Even fans of Metal Gear Solid games on console, can sometimes not play or heavily criticize the PSP versions (however excellent some of them are) simply because the controls were lacking. Project Evolution Soccer's first outing on PSP could have a load-time of 2 minutes for starting the game, 1 minute for staring a match. That is not good. They improved that a lot in a later version so part of that was programming, but it was a common issue.

So if you ask me, if those new analog sticks work, the battery life is as advertised, the graphics are great, and you have all the extra options afforded by the front and back multi-touch and cameras and detailed tilt, there's a very awesome game to be played there, and the NGP at least has the potential of being a very comprehensive handheld gaming device.

The potential is there, but how well will that potential be used? The NGP gets rid of technical messiness the PSP had, but that's just one thing. Taking the same gameplay of the console counterparts and giving them some alternative touch controls is just lazy. The gameplay experience has to have a certain identity gap, or else you're gonna get people who choose with no real sense over what is different. Other than knowing one game is a console version and one is a portable version, that could easy turn into a coin-flip where someone isn't gonna buy both unless there are some clearly distinct differences.

Spoiler

I don't know how other people define a "console game" on a handheld, but I define it as a game where the developer simply takes a console game or concept and shoehorns it into a handheld port.

The GTA franchise is a perfect example of this. While I am sure many enjoyed LCS and VCS, I for one find them crude in comparsion to Chinatown Wars. CW was designed as a handheld title, ditching the blocky polygon models, texture and 3d enviroment for a cell based top down enviroment. I found CW to be more aesthetically pleasing from a visual standpoint and a better representation of what a GTA game should be on a portable handheld.

And while I loved MGSO on the PSP, I can't ignore that Portable Ops ended up creating a feeling for me of wishing it had been giving a full console treatement. Going from the lush and wonderful CG cutscenes thats a big component of MGS on console to storyboard cutouts represented a disappointment. It is the equivalent of Konami releasing a 1080p MGS movie on BluRay then turning around and releasing its successor as a comic book. There was nothing in the game that made me appreciate it as a portable title.

I have fond memories of playing Chinatown and games like KZ:Liberation because their developers didn't try to make design conservative titles that came off as poor impressions of their console brethren. I see games like MGSO and GTA:VCS as titles define by their console counterparts and thus restricted and limited in their potential.

What the PSP, Android and IOS has allowed me to realize is that while I have fully appreciated the evolution of gaming, old school gameplay and mechanics are still as fun as they were decades ago. You all may want to see a Uncharted on the NGP that plays and looks similar to Uncharted on the PS3. But I rather see a fun, different and unique experience that captures the Uncharted franchise spirit or the return of Contra/original Metal Gear that blends current day technology and design with old school gameplay. Portables are the perfect platform for this exploration and alternative experience.

That's pretty much it for me. Now that being said I don't mind a few console-like experiences, but those would have to be like KH:BBS or MGSW where they're showing some clearly different gameplay mechanics and story lines that aren't available on consoles. Those types allow developers to create some lower-costing spin-offs of existing franchises that experiment with some new gameplay opportunities. The same goes for old IPs that can be revived to try out some new ideas as well

At the same time keeping games like KZ: Liberation, Resistance: Retribution, and some old-scool classics (w/ some updated XLBA/PSN stuff) gives the the handheld library for the PSP/NGP some true variety that shouldn't be thrown away for by-the-book ports of console games and mobile gaming apps.

 

[Xpuntar]

I find it rather intriguing that "hardcore dungeon crawlers" (like Bard's Tale, Might& Magic series, Wizardry series ... ) are so prominent on handhelds in Japan. Very few of them are made for the US and even less for EU

Those type of games are not the game you would expect to be quick to grasp and play by most people. (As with any FRP/RPG of the old on Amiga/Atari ST emulator or through Dosbox)

So where is the catch, that those time consuming dungeon hack&slash are now mostly made for portables?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There are quite a few coming for consoles this year, although they keep getting delayed.

 

[Sigfried1977]

The Gamboy Advance was basically a portable snes. There was never a problem with that from what i saw. DS had many console ports aswel, again no issue.

Just like the SNES, the GBA had the same 6 buttons and the benefit of extremely quick loading times due to the cartridges.

The PSP on the other hand is often treated as a portable PS2, but the sad reality is that it falls quite a bit short in comparison. It doesn't have quite the hardware muscle, it doesn't have the control options, and thanks to the UMD drive, the loading times are often excruciatingly long. I don't think you'd have anywhere near as many complaints If the PSP actually was a full-featured portable PS2.

I think I already said it, but I really believe I'd have enjoyed something like Metal Gear Solid Peacewalker if it wasn't for the god awful controls.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Three defined characters - warrior, mage and ranger types - in a team with specific roles to play. This means (in theory; we haven't seen how well its executed yet) interdependences on teamates akin to sports. Unlike something like U2's shooting coop, where everyone is basically playing a solo shooting mechanic only with revive, and the chance to sometimes rescue a teammate, WITN is aiming to have players need to cooperate much more closely and you won't be able to abandon the bigger team picture to do your own independent thing. Similar to how The Agency has been described. I think a team of three sounds about right for that sort of coop.

Still, if U3 isn't getting that level of coop, and ND have said it isn't, then there's not much point talking about what they could have done any more!

 

[onQ]

Three defined characters - warrior, mage and ranger types - in a team with specific roles to play. This means (in theory; we haven't seen how well its executed yet) interdependences on teamates akin to sports. Unlike something like U2's shooting coop, where everyone is basically playing a solo shooting mechanic only with revive, and the chance to sometimes rescue a teammate, WITN is aiming to have players need to cooperate much more closely and you won't be able to abandon the bigger team picture to do your own independent thing. Similar to how The Agency has been described. I think a team of three sounds about right for that sort of coop.

Still, if U3 isn't getting that level of coop, and ND have said it isn't, then there's not much point talking about what they could have done any more!

lol I think you posted in the wrong thread