What exactly is a "Console Game"? (on handhelds)

[corduroygt]

If I get the NGP, it'd only be used in trips and packed with my laptop. I dislike PC gaming on a laptop and also don't want any games on a laptop I use for work. It's definitely too big to carry in my pocket.

Of course, this assumes that Sony will be smart and allow charging the NGP via USB when it's turned off as well as turned on. It's ridiculous that you had to get CFW to enable such basic functionality on the PSP.

 

[mrcorbo]

& why is it only a bad thing when it come to PSP/NGP?

does this only apply when it's a console game from the same gen as the handheld because I remember when Mario Brothers was a console game.


I see people saying that handheld games need to be games that you can pickup & play that don't take a long time to enjoy but if that was the case how come RPGs make such good handheld games.

& how come Metal Gear Solid 3 is ok on the 3DS but would have been just another console port on the PSP?


I'm really confused at this point.

I think the idea isn't that a good handheld game shouldn't take a long time to enjoy, but rather that it should be a game that doesn't need you to give it your full attention for a long period of time to enjoy. So, this can either be a game that you can get into and out of quickly without the need to orient yourself to some complicated scenario or a game that only requires you to act at a pace that is suitable for the circumstances that are typical for someone gaming outside of their own home.

 

[kagemaru]

Save states should help in terms of pick up and play.

That's what I was thinking, but for some reason save systems to allow pick up and play with any game wasn't widely supported in the number of DS games I've played.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I think the idea isn't that a good handheld game shouldn't take a long time to enjoy, but rather that it should be a game that doesn't need you to give it your full attention for a long period of time to enjoy. So, this can either be a game that you can get into and out of quickly without the need to orient yourself to some complicated scenario or a game that only requires you to act at a pace that is suitable for the circumstances that are typical for someone gaming outside of their own home.

I agree and another issue at this time is slower on-line speeds for 3G (phone data). A game designed for a phone should not require a fast data connection.

Beyond the above a game can have console like graphics.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

This thread is completely off topic! Why people do/don't want an NGP is already discussed in the business thread. OnQ is asking how are people differeniating between nebulously classified types of game when talking about why they don't want an NGP! (and yes, this thread itself has people saying they do/don't want console games on the go without defning what that even means which was the purpose of the thread)

 

[Nesh]

This thread is completely off topic! Why people do/don't want an NGP is already discussed in the business thread. OnQ is asking how are people differeniating between nebulously classified types of game when talking about why they don't want an NGP! (and yes, this thread itself has people saying they do/don't want console games on the go without defning what that even means which was the purpose of the thread)

Thats because there isnt any real definition and the games planned for it arent much different from what was released previously on dedicated gaming devices. What defines the success of a handheld device isnt the type of games, but the differentiating factors that makes the experience of a particular game suitable for a handheld device.

The DS for example had games similar to what we had on consoles to (and sometimes the same games). The stylus, touch and dual screen gave a reason of purchase and diversified the experience suitable for it. These features adjusted the games for it The 3DS isnt different. Games on consoles may be fun on handheld devices too if they are adapted to unique features them such as touch screen, motion detection etc.

 

[Prophecy2k]

I'll go ahead and have a stab at trying to identify what people might mean by "console games on handhelds":

1. Straight ports of console games which weren't designed specifically for handheld - this in my view is rather inane as even the handheld most notorious for "console-like" games actually had very few (if any) direct ports of console games (excluding BC ps1 games, as these games were never designed for the PSP and are emulated on the device thus are technically not "PSP games" and shouldn't be used in the argument "PSP has console games".

2. Games not suited to handheld gaming due to control interface limitations - this one is pretty legit in my view, and given that the PSP had a few games like this, which were game genres & types traditionally thought to be better suited to "twin stick" control as with a console controller (e.g. FPS games etc)... however this would be a none issue with NGP ;-)

3. Games with big console-like graphics and production values - again this is a rather silly view taken by a few i would suspect have never actually played some of these games. Some of the best and highest quality titles in handheld gaming full stop, exist on the DS and PSP (e.g. KZ:Liberation, TWEWY, MGS5W, VC:2 & 3, Patapon 1&2, Locoroco, Pokemon games, FFVII Crisis Core, GOW: COO&GOS , GTA:Chinatown Wars etc etc). These games are the pinnacle of handheld gaming and are 100% built & designed for handhelds.

Someone else can help me out here as i can't think of any more possible definitions. Even the three that i listed are none issues in my view with both the current DS and PSP. Both console's game libraries are diverse enough to cover every aspect of dedicated handheld gaming. The majority of the negativity that surrounds this notion of "console-like games on handhelds" is based on more presumption, misinformation, lack of any kind of extensive experience with the current-gen handhelds and just plain falacy in my view. There's not one single argument against deep, creative, mutlifeatured, long-lifespan, and complex (all aspects of console-like games) that can stand up to close scrutiny.

Even most of the casual iOS games, the one-minute, pick-up and play, shallow, two minutes of fun games are more often deemed as shitty as the shovelware that devs and pubs of old used to try flogging on consoles before the market ultimately rejected them (to varying degrees each gen). The games that do well on the iOS platform, the ones that people get excited about are deep enough and rich enough in terms of presentation, content and depth that they wouldn't appear out of place at all on XBLA & PSN. So please tell me again, what are these fabled "portable" games that don't exist currently on the DS and PSP that do so in abundance on the iOS platform?

 

[Prophecy2k]

Thats because there isnt any real definition and the games planned for it arent much different from what was released previously on dedicated gaming devices. What defines the success of a handheld device isnt the type of games, but the differentiating factors that makes the experience of a particular game suitable for a handheld device.

The DS for example had games similar to what we had on consoles to (and sometimes the same games). The stylus, touch and dual screen gave a reason of purchase and diversified the experience suitable for it. These features adjusted the games for it The 3DS isnt different. Games on consoles may be fun on handheld devices too if they are adapted to unique features them such as touch screen, motion detection etc.

By "it" i suppose you're refering to NGP? If so then please enlighten us how you're able to see into the future and have been able to see every game ever released on the damn thing to know that the games aren't much different than those released on the original platform.

Also, by your definition the NGP games shown at the unveiling are exactly the same as what we've seen on the DS. As they clearly showed games like Uncharted and Little Deviants, making good & rather novel use of the front & back touchscreen, gyros etc....

Your definition itself is reasonable in my view and is the most sensible i've heard yet, however your analysis of the revealed games for NGP and conclusions as to what makes those games different to the DS's in terms of their "handheld-ability", isn't even consistent and doesn't make any sense in all honesty.

On the other hand i would say that the sucess of the DS was directly a function of the types of games available on the system... i.e. Nintendo Games... that's it really!

 

[Nesh]

By "it" i suppose you're refering to NGP? If so then please enlighten us how you're able to see into the future and have been able to see every game ever released on the damn thing to know that the games aren't much different than those released on the original platform.

Also, by your definition the NGP games shown at the unveiling are exactly the same as what we've seen on the DS. As they clearly showed games like Uncharted and Little Deviants, making good & rather novel use of the front & back touchscreen, gyros etc....

Your definition itself is reasonable in my view and is the most sensible i've heard yet, however your analysis of the revealed games for NGP and conclusions as to what makes those games different to the DS's in terms of their "handheld-ability", isn't even consistent and doesn't make any sense in all honesty.

On the other hand i would say that the sucess of the DS was directly a function of the types of games available on the system... i.e. Nintendo Games... that's it really!

Under the same logic someone has to explain how the people complaining "about console" games on the NGP managed to look into the future as well.

You kind of misunderstood me so I dont like the tone of your reply in some places.
I was refering to the NGP yes. My point is that there are examples where handheld unique and suitable features have been applied on games like Uncharted and Killzone. Other games also demonstrated some handheld unique features like the ability to use your NGP screen as a virtual window to look around in the environment in Everyday's Golf with the help of the gyroscopes.
There were also other examples such us the game where the user uses the rear touch pad to manipulate the environment and move the spheres. Another was a dice game which exploited the gyroscopes
These games can be made on either console or handheld but with platform unique experiences. This can apply for any game. There is no game that can not be designed for both handheld or console. The difference as I already said is the adaptation of set game to the paltform's(handheld/console) uniqueness.
I havent been convinced that the NGP will have simply straight console ported experiences. The examples shown direct that there is a focus to portable adaptability.

 

[onQ]

I'll go ahead and have a stab at trying to identify what people might mean by "console games on handhelds":

1. Straight ports of console games which weren't designed specifically for handheld - this in my view is rather inane as even the handheld most notorious for "console-like" games actually had very few (if any) direct ports of console games (excluding BC ps1 games, as these games were never designed for the PSP and are emulated on the device thus are technically not "PSP games" and shouldn't be used in the argument "PSP has console games".

2. Games not suited to handheld gaming due to control interface limitations - this one is pretty legit in my view, and given that the PSP had a few games like this, which were game genres & types traditionally thought to be better suited to "twin stick" control as with a console controller (e.g. FPS games etc)... however this would be a none issue with NGP ;-)

3. Games with big console-like graphics and production values - again this is a rather silly view taken by a few i would suspect have never actually played some of these games. Some of the best and highest quality titles in handheld gaming full stop, exist on the DS and PSP (e.g. KZ:Liberation, TWEWY, MGS5W, VC:2 & 3, Patapon 1&2, Locoroco, Pokemon games, FFVII Crisis Core, GOW: COO&GOS , GTA:Chinatown Wars etc etc). These games are the pinnacle of handheld gaming and are 100% built & designed for handhelds.

Someone else can help me out here as i can't think of any more possible definitions. Even the three that i listed are none issues in my view with both the current DS and PSP. Both console's game libraries are diverse enough to cover every aspect of dedicated handheld gaming. The majority of the negativity that surrounds this notion of "console-like games on handhelds" is based on more presumption, misinformation, lack of any kind of extensive experience with the current-gen handhelds and just plain falacy in my view. There's not one single argument against deep, creative, mutlifeatured, long-lifespan, and complex (all aspects of console-like games) that can stand up to close scrutiny.

Even most of the casual iOS games, the one-minute, pick-up and play, shallow, two minutes of fun games are more often deemed as shitty as the shovelware that devs and pubs of old used to try flogging on consoles before the market ultimately rejected them (to varying degrees each gen). The games that do well on the iOS platform, the ones that people get excited about are deep enough and rich enough in terms of presentation, content and depth that they wouldn't appear out of place at all on XBLA & PSN. So please tell me again, what are these fabled "portable" games that don't exist currently on the DS and PSP that do so in abundance on the iOS platform?

this is where the confusion comes in,

because if a game comes out for PSP & PS2 at the same time people would look at it & say they don't want a 'Console Game' on a handheld but their isn't many NES,SNES,NEOGEO,Sega G,N64,PS1,Dreamcast games that I can think of that wouldn't make a good handheld game even as a direct port.

& I think it will be the same way when the NGP comes out if it can play PS2 games through EMU they all will become games that can be enjoyed on a handheld.

I think people are just being overwhelmed by games on a handheld looking almost the same as the game on their home console & any little flaws become big issues.

 

[Farid]

I think that an interesting corollary to the OP question would be "when did having a console game experience on a handheld become an issue?"

I don't remember people complaining about games like Zelda Link's Awakening or Super Mario Island 2. Even if these games would have been better experiences on consoles; not many brought that point, because, well, it would have been like asking for a Sonic game on SNES: Futile, if not presumptuous, but mostly futile. Then again, back in the days, there were no simple way for users to know what people they didn't know personally thought on the matter; internet forums were some Jetsons' future stuff for most gamers, but I digress...

Correct me if I recollect things the wrong way, but I think the first time this "console games on handheld" became a recurring issue was with the release of PSP (it now affects the 3DS and NGP, from what I can read on the various news outlets and gaming forums).

Was it because for the first time we had a handheld that could pull almost identical port of console games? That would be a cogent argument.
Was it the rise of the blog-like "anything for a page view" media outlets, and their negative-everything approaches to news? Maybe, but we'd need some study to back that claim. But it doesn't come off as far fetched.
Was it a mix of various trends and reasons, including the ones above? Most likely, as always, it's rarely a single issue/reason phenomena, but more of a case of having all the elements aligned at the right time.

 

[Nesh]

I dont think the problem with the PSP was "console games" per se. I think the problem was lack of originality. It had the same franchises as the PS2, with almost identical gameplay while lacking the same fidelity as its console counterparts. Many games felt like rehashes. Games unavailable on the PS2 (old or new) released on the PSP would have been better in giving the PSP an identity of its own. Thats why I begun enjoying more old school console games on it than the new games. Emulation homebrew was a godsent
But the PSP games wer like playing the same games twice, if you already owned a PS2. It also begun to get PS2 ports and the PS2 begun getting PSP ports. It eliminated any differentiating factor.
The DS could get away with it because it was getting older versions of console games, new games, games that didnt feel like the current gen console games and the touch screen made the experience different

Strangely though that wasnt much of a problem during the 8 bit and 16 bit days. But games were simpler then and appeared like different versions because the performance difference forced the developers to make gameplay changes on the handheld iterations

 

[Farid]

I forgot a point, although I glanced over it in my post: was it because the difference between PSP and PS2 (and now 3DS and NGP, with Wii and PS3 respectively) was so little that some games seemed redundant in a way?

I'll answer with another bland and uncommitted "maybe" here again. I'll note, nonetheless, that it's not a particularly fair point to pit against a handheld, since redundant game experiences have always existed across platforms -any true multi-platform game is just that, the same game on different hardware. And let's not forget the inherent plus of the handhleds' iterations: being portable versions. That advantage loses some of its edge if you mostly play handhelds at home, of course.

 

[Arwin]

I would define a 'console game' as a port of a game from a console, or of comparable scope of games on a console.

The problem with the PSP, and I'll gladly restate them, wasn't so much that console games on a handheld were a problem. GTA on PSP was highly popular, as was Monster Hunter. However, many games that were ported suffered because the PSP had some weaknesses that developers either didn't bother or didn't manage to compensate for. There were load-times for instance from UMD, which could get pretty atrocious with some games. There were also controls issues, where the lack of a second analog stick couldn't be sufficiently compensated for, and even the analog nub that was on there wasn't terribly comfortable to use (I agree with this - removed the disc by the way and use the mini stick that's holding that in place, which is slightly easier for me to control). Even the d-pad and the shoulder buttons weren't quite the quality of that on the dualshock3. Early on battery life with heavy UMD use was also sometimes a little too low for many people's tastes.

I will defend my PSP and its games for a long time, because there are enough examples showing that a 'console game' on a handheld works just fine. Tekken, Burnout, Ridge Racer, WipeOut, GTA, Daxter, there are plenty of good examples.

However, the limits were mostly load-times and controls. Even fans of Metal Gear Solid games on console, can sometimes not play or heavily criticize the PSP versions (however excellent some of them are) simply because the controls were lacking. Project Evolution Soccer's first outing on PSP could have a load-time of 2 minutes for starting the game, 1 minute for staring a match. That is not good. They improved that a lot in a later version so part of that was programming, but it was a common issue.

So if you ask me, if those new analog sticks work, the battery life is as advertised, the graphics are great, and you have all the extra options afforded by the front and back multi-touch and cameras and detailed tilt, there's a very awesome game to be played there, and the NGP at least has the potential of being a very comprehensive handheld gaming device.

 

[Nesh]

Yeah the controls were the worst offender. My hands hurt after an hour of play. It wasnt comfortable at all to hold. The nub was really a pain. And the d-pad wasnt as "maneuverable" as the Dual Shock's. It murdered the gameplay of fighting games too. And dont get me started with FPS's and other games with similar control schemes

 

[owen]

Dispite the fact that the PSP was as poorly designed as the ps3 IMHO I think the best explanation for the topic point 1 from above;

1. Straight ports of console games which weren't designed specifically for handheld

A REALLY good game on the console will probably be a good game on a handheld. But such is not the case with all games. And there are some games that will are definitely better off not ported. There are some design changes that must be made to the game to make it play well on a small screen.

You really have to cut down on the Text, the loading, the annoying repeative fetch quests and infinite spawning enemies that many console games use to extend play time.

I can only imagine how the shooting mechanics are going to work in Uncharted. I can forsee many a NGP player getting shot and falling into a pit while using the back touch pad to jump.

I always wondered why the Gameboy had 2 buttons for so long, its because 2 buttons is all the complexity you really need when you are trying not to get mugged at the bus stop.

 

[Prophecy2k]

Under the same logic someone has to explain how the people complaining "about console" games on the NGP managed to look into the future as well.

You kind of misunderstood me so I dont like the tone of your reply in some places.
I was refering to the NGP yes. My point is that there are examples where handheld unique and suitable features have been applied on games like Uncharted and Killzone. Other games also demonstrated some handheld unique features like the ability to use your NGP screen as a virtual window to look around in the environment in Everyday's Golf with the help of the gyroscopes.
There were also other examples such us the game where the user uses the rear touch pad to manipulate the environment and move the spheres. Another was a dice game which exploited the gyroscopes
These games can be made on either console or handheld but with platform unique experiences. This can apply for any game. There is no game that can not be designed for both handheld or console. The difference as I already said is the adaptation of set game to the paltform's(handheld/console) uniqueness.
I havent been convinced that the NGP will have simply straight console ported experiences. The examples shown direct that there is a focus to portable adaptability.

My apologies good sir, it seems i didn't quite get the gist of your original response. Please forgive me if my tone was a bit bad too, it very much wasn't intended.

I did say that i liked your definition though and thought it was the most sensible of the lot that i've heard. Now i fully understand what it was you were saying i fully agree with you that i don't very much see any "straight ports" of console games onto NGP in future at all.... Well i bloody well hope not ;-)

 

[Prophecy2k]

Dispite the fact that the PSP was as poorly designed as the ps3 IMHO I think the best explanation for the topic point 1 from above;

1. Straight ports of console games which weren't designed specifically for handheld

A REALLY good game on the console will probably be a good game on a handheld. But such is not the case with all games. And there are some games that will are definitely better off not ported. There are some design changes that must be made to the game to make it play well on a small screen.

You really have to cut down on the Text, the loading, the annoying repeative fetch quests and infinite spawning enemies that many console games use to extend play time.

I can only imagine how the shooting mechanics are going to work in Uncharted. I can forsee many a NGP player getting shot and falling into a pit while using the back touch pad to jump.

I always wondered why the Gameboy had 2 buttons for so long, its because 2 buttons is all the complexity you really need when you are trying not to get mugged at the bus stop.

Agreed, however aspects of bad game design and lazy development exist on all platforms and some of examples you mentioned are bad in console games too. I agree that these aspects of bad game design are most likely more destructive for a game meant to be played in short bursts on the go, but then if a game is awesome alot of these problems can be overlooked (see FFVII on the PSP).

I'm not sure whether these points make a game more of a "bad handheld game" than simply "a bad game"?

 

[KongRudi]

& why is it only a bad thing when it come to PSP/NGP?

does this only apply when it's a console game from the same gen as the handheld because I remember when Mario Brothers was a console game.


I see people saying that handheld games need to be games that you can pickup & play that don't take a long time to enjoy but if that was the case how come RPGs make such good handheld games.

& how come Metal Gear Solid 3 is ok on the 3DS but would have been just another console port on the PSP?


I'm really confused at this point.

I think it's because alot of people play handheld games on the toilet, and with the NGP you have two analog sticks, and loose one hand for wiping.
With the 3DS you most likely have automatic camera-control instead of right analog stick.

 

[ShadowRunner]

The Gamboy Advance was basically a portable snes. There was never a problem with that from what i saw. DS had many console ports aswel, again no issue.

From what i can see people consider a portable game as a 'Console' game if it has ever had a version on home consoles previously, simple as that. Pokemon is a fine examle, that is a game that would fit perfectly at home on consoles, as would pretty much any portable game ever released, yet these dont get labelled console games. Its nothing to do with the experience they offer or that they are destinct from 'console games', it really is just that they were never released on console first!