Virtua Fighter 5 Site up

[Nesh]

I agree with Arwin in this one

 

[idsn6]

I dislike long point-for-point posts. They're a pain for readers and writers alike.

I did actually say most moves, but still, this is a bit of a weak example and easy to explain. f,F+1+2 is a two arm strike already. Normally, 1+2 would have been a good choice because this throw involves the arms only, compare to say, 2+3 being a throw that involves a throw with a right kick, 1+4 being a throw involving a left kick, etc. But obviously, 1+2 is also used for a quick, powerful forward double strike. This is also fully in line with the way f,F (or f,f,) is normally used.

I did not say f,F+1+2. I said f,F+2, i.e. a single button. Another example is Heihachi's QCF+2 being a punch, and his QCF+1 being a throw.
Also, 3 is a left kick. 4 is a right.

Actually, more and more can. You'd be surprised ... But this has nothing to do with that the command would flip at all. Just in your VF mind For you, it changes completely because now the 'other' button is a short jab. But in our mind, the 1 button is still the left arm, but because our stance has changed, it's now the one we would use for a strike rather than a jab.

Are you saying the exact same thing I did? Please name some fully ambidextrous Tekken characters; I've been out of touch.

Actually, because we use 4 buttons and none for guarding (other than the back or back-down auto-guard, and of course the active fence guard and take-overs), we don't need to cancel a whole lot. Buttons and move match one-to-one nearly always and so buffering and canceling isn't nearly as much an issue. How orienting is a factor in this I don't get at all.

Having a guard button doesn't mean we NEED to cancel. It means we CAN. Tekken will never have an analogue for a K~G twitch to force a major evade. This is an issue on Tekken's end, not the PKG games.

That's nonsense. The directional buttons are nearly always completely coherent with the button actions.

Yes, when they're present. I'm saying that in strings, they're often not.

The level of the kick is modified by the directional button. The difference between a left kick and a right kick for us is stance dependent and means exactly what it means to a fighter depending on which leg is standing forward.

Same answer, different leg. Though I have to say, that it feels that characters are sometimes for balancing reasons a little bit awkwardly limited in their ability to follow different moves. For instance, Fei can't smoothly follow a 1,2 with a kick at all, and others do have a smoothly following kick but you can't modify their target area.

Paul's 2,3 is high-high. His 1,4 is high-low.

A throw involving a left foot kick, a punch with the right hand, and a kick iwth the left foot. Again, this sequence can't be comboed for all characters though, and not all characters have a throw on 1+4 (though many do).

No. 1+4,2,4 is Jun/Jin/Asuka's White Crane combo, which is four strikes. Do you see what I meant about inconsistency and confusion?

Again, this would do exactly what you'd expect, re the above. And since you never indicate directional/joystick input, I must assume you have a very limited understanding of how Tekken works.

3,2,4,3,1+4,2,2,1,2 is an actual Jin 10-string from TTT. I didn't indicate directions because there are none.
Spot the irony.

 

[V3]

Let's move away from the strict Tekken vs. Virtua Fighter discussion here an dbring another fighting game into the mix. What does everyone feel about Dead or Alive compared to Virtua Fighter?

I saw the trailer for DoA movie, oh my. I wiped that thing out of my head but thanks for reminding me again

Dead or Alive is alright, but it ranks a lot lower on my preference. I would take some of the 2D fighters over DoA. I don't enjoy the mechanic of DoA as much as other fighting games. I would play DoA, if my other options were FPS, RTS or RPG . When I ever need to take a break from VF, normally I spend my money on Beatmania over DoA.

 

[Nesh]

Man you arent making any point. You are making some things sound confusing and problematic when they are not.

You take some things and make them sound as if they are a big part of the game. So what if a few 10 hit strings dont require directional input? Big deal.

And so what if an input in one character differs from the other? Its not a problem. There is completely nothing wrong with it.

You arguements are meaningless

1. It's inconsistent. In VF, a high throw is P+G, P punches, K kicks. Always. In Tekken, the same button combination can be a strike, a throw, a counter, or a stance/movement. Nothing is certain. f,F+2 for Heihachi is a punch, which makes intuitive sense; f,F+2 for Hwoarang is a throw, which doesn't. That's hardly easy to explain.
2. It's limited. Almost no characters can switch foot stance naturally in Tekken because if they did, their commands would flip buttons from moment to moment. The lack of a guard button for easy cancels, clears, movements, buffers, and orienting is painful.
3. It's unintuitive. Tekken uses the joystick in-string rarely, leaving you with only the buttons to try to glean information on the string.

1. There is no inconsistency. You just know each character has a different logic behind his fighting style. Simple. Why expect every input to have the same result with each character?
I dont understand why this is a problem. Please explain why this is a problem

2.Why are you expecting tekken to be exactly like VF? There is a logic in Tekken absent from VF. That is the use of back/front kick/punch. Thats why there is no foot stance. There is no reason to have one in tekken anyways. I can only agree with the lack of a guard button.

3. Directional input used almost always. 10-hit strings and the likes are an insignficant and small part of the game. I dont understand why you are using this example. There is nothing wrong. It has a button sequence that requires memorization and thats it. There are only a handful of these strings that are rarely used and the only thing directional input would have done to these was to make them unnecessarily hard.

 

[V3]

Don't just scratch the surface though, because that doesn't get me anywhere.

In fact, nearly everything mentioned here is in Tekken 5: DR already.

And you should know where T5 gets much of its idea from Even Tekken dev team admitted how much they liked VF4.

Still though, nearly everything I mentioned maybe in Tekken 5, but its occurance during Tekken 5 matches are alot more rare, compare to VF4.

 

[idsn6]

1. There is no inconsistency. You just know each character has a different logic behind his fighting style. Simple. Why expect every input to have the same result with each character?
I dont understand why this is a problem. Please explain why this is a problem

I expect standardization. I expect to be able to see a command and to have a reasonable guess as to what class of move it is. I expect new players to pick up on these simple, universal rules and not be surprised as they experiment.

2.Why are you expecting tekken to be exactly like VF? There is a logic in Tekken absent from VF. That is the use of back/front kick/punch. Thats why there is no foot stance. There is no reason to have one in tekken anyways. I can only agree with the lack of a guard button.

It's a limitation, so it went on the list. The hurdles for a side-favoring character in VF are much smaller than those for a side-switching character in Tekken. Whether Tekken needs it is irrelevant.

3. Directional input used almost always. 10-hit strings and the likes are an insignficant and small part of the game. I dont understand why you are using this example. There is nothing wrong. It has a button sequence that requires memorization and thats it. There are only a handful of these strings that are rarely used and the only thing directional input would have done to these was to make them unnecessarily hard.

The 10-string was a farcical example. I didn't anticipate that Arwin would have no idea what it was, or that you would latch onto it more than me.
Directional input is used more in branching strings in VF. This is a necessity of the halved attack buttons, yes, but it is also more helpful to have the hit-level of each branch essentially laid out for you instead of having to remember which limb is capable of hitting where. Tekken has more raw, rote memorization, which again is not helped by the unstandardized movelists.

How about this. Why don't you tell me the advantages of one-limb-per-button input. I can think of some examples, but that's not my job.

 

[ban25]

Some people in this thread had asked about videos of high-level VF play. There's plenty of it, but frankly, VFDC is a much better resource in that regard than anything I can produce here. However, here's a few videos of VF5 from Club Sega and Sega Arena:

Pai through to the final (damn, looks like I really need to pick up my Pai game for VF5):
http://am.sega.jp/utop/news/vf5_ote5/y_05.html

Vanessa vs Shun, Akira vs Law, Law vs Shun:
http://am.sega.jp/utop/news/vf5_ote5/y_04.html

 

[Crayon]

Insiteful and accurrate breakdown. Perhaps argued more firmly than neccessary.

Sup, brother.

Where'd you come from?

You'd be surprised ... But this has nothing to do with that the command would flip at all. Just in your VF mind

I believe isdn6 has played a whole bunch of Tekken.

BTW, the stance switching isdn6 is talking about is not the same stance switching Arwin is talling about. In VF characters have special stances like Tekken, altho much fewer. In VF character are ambidextrous, meaning a particular kick for example, can leave the default rear leg in a forward position. The character's foot placement relative to each other changes alot and has a subtle effect on the game. Primarily with regards to effective range. Altho it's possible to manually alter your stance, it's primarily a passive system.

Edit:

Here's some play on VF4

Goh v Akira
Good match between some mid level players. They seem to be familiar with each other. Friends, probably.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7SA3BqMCso

Wolf v Vannessa
Higher level players throwing down. Looks like they are not very familiar with each other, or they are just pretty serious about their rankings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnfzKZX5nB0

 

[cthellis42]

Sorry to toss in a tangent, but with the other videos going around, I just had to post my favorite use of tech in a tournament ever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-DZGk4r7sc



(P.S. Maybe it's just Goh and Akira, or maybe that's just what happens when you get to "mid-level" and only lasts for a bit, but that was some DAMN boring fighting going on! )

 

[ban25]

VF5 Media

Ok, so maybe just a *little* media. Here's some VF5 matches from HK-VF (http://www.hk-vf.net/tv/index.html), along with an awesome Chibita match on VF5.

If you don't want to stream these videos, I highly recommend using a program like FlashGet (http://www.flashget.com/en/download.htm) to download them.

Sarah vs Brad *Great Match!
mms://www.hk-vf.net/vf5_rev.1/2006-9-13_3_37_SARAH_vs_BRAD.wmv
Aoi vs Shun
mms://www.hk-vf.net/vf5_rev.1/up0355.wmv
Sarah vs Wolf
mms://www.hk-vf.net/vf5_rev.1/up0353.wmv
Sarah vs Aoi
mms://www.hk-vf.net/vf5_rev.1/2006-9-13_0_4_SARAH_vs_AOI.wmv
Pai vs Akira
mms://www.hk-vf.net/vf5_rev.1/2006-9-13_15_30_PAI_vs_AKIRA.wmv
Kage vs Akira
mms://www.hk-vf.net/vf5_rev.1/2006-9-9_23_4_KAGE_vs_AKIRA.wmv
Pai vs Aoi
mms://www.hk-vf.net/vf5_rev.1/10_060910_PAI_vs_AOI.wmv
Pai vs Vanessa
mms://www.hk-vf.net/vf5_rev.1/2006-9-9_15_49_PAI_vs_VANESSA.wmv
Lion vs Eileen *Another good one
mms://www.hk-vf.net/vf5_rev.1/2006-9-11_21_49_LION_vs_EILEEN.wmv
Kage vs Jacky
mms://www.hk-vf.net/vf5_rev.1/2006-9-13_19_40_KAGE_vs_JACKY.wmv
Brad vs Eileen
mms://www.hk-vf.net/vf5_rev.1/2006-8-30_20_5_BRAD_vs_EILEEN.wmv
Lion vs Lion
mms://www.hk-vf.net/vf5_rev.1/2006-9-12_22_25_LION_vs_LION.wmv
Lei-Fei vs Sarah
mms://www.hk-vf.net/vf5_rev.1/2006-9-10_2_6_SARAH_vs_LEI-FEI.wmv
Shun vs Wolf
mms://www.hk-vf.net/vf5_rev.1/SHU_vs_WOLF_06.wmv
Law vs Jacky
mms://www.hk-vf.net/vf5_rev.1/2006-9-11_21_59_JACKY_vs_LAU.wmv

Chibita Cup 3 on 3:
http://www.popy.tv/niigata/page004.html
http://www.popy.tv/niigata/movie/chibita-cup.wmv

 

[idsn6]

Sup, brother.

Where'd you come from?

Around and about. Are you from VFDC?

I guess I was kind of an ass. Here's the finals for VTYME 3 (VF4) to make up for it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvw0njtEn2M

 

[ban25]

It was inevitable that all this talk of VF would make me have to drag Evo back out for a good hour or two in Quest mode.

That reminded me that one of the features I would very much like to see in VF5/PS3 is a way to share replays online.

 

[Crayon]

Around and about. Are you from VFDC?

I guess I was kind of an ass. Here's the finals for VTYME 3 (VF4) to make up for it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvw0njtEn2M

No, but I picked up alot of tips there when I was first learning.

And you was a bit of a bastard! But you were right, so I didn't want to say it. =)

 

[Arwin]

I dislike long point-for-point posts. They're a pain for readers and writers alike.

Just for writers, imho, but I still find myself doing them, so I guess it beats the alternative.

I did not say f,F+1+2. I said f,F+2, i.e. a single button.

I know that. Just pointing out that f,F+1+2 would be the normal combo, and going back and checking, in fact f,F+1+2 gives you the same move as f,F+2. I was confused with f,1+2.

Another example is Heihachi's QCF+2 being a punch, and his QCF+1 being a throw.
Also, 3 is a left kick. 4 is a right.

There are examples, and certainly the further you go away from the default punches and kicks, the harder it is to find the connection. But because even with the more exotic moves, there is usually a reasonable connection between the movements and limbs, the moves are simply a lot easier to remember.

Often, though, you will find that when QCF+1 is a throw, QCF+1+2 is also a throw, and if they haven't used QCF+1 for anything else, they've mapped the throw to QCF+1 to make it easier to pull off - a shortcut if you will.

However, I'm beginning to understand that the VF logic may be more relevant at high-level play. But in the end it comes down to what you have to remember. For me, the individual moves are easier to remember in Tekken, because to me, there is more logic to them. Again, like I said, 1,2 or 2,2 or 1,1, I know exactly what I want and expect.

Are you saying the exact same thing I did? Please name some fully ambidextrous Tekken characters; I've been out of touch.

Again, I'm starting to understand the difference better. While there are a bunch of characters now that have a stance with the right foot or left foot forward, this isn't the same as with Virtua Fighter where all characters have this and where the stance determines the context for the next move (thanks for that, Crayon). In Tekken, there are just the different stances (it's more often standing backwards than with the other foot foward even), and some characters use these to simulate full abidextrousness (I think Hwoarang qualifies here?)

Having a guard button doesn't mean we NEED to cancel. It means we CAN. Tekken will never have an analogue for a K~G twitch to force a major evade. This is an issue on Tekken's end, not the PKG games.

Again, I'm starting to understand. You are saying that you can pull a punch or a kick to create a fakey? I haven't seen this in the example videos

Yes, when they're present. I'm saying that in strings, they're often not.

True, not in the big strings.

Paul's 2,3 is high-high. His 1,4 is high-low.

That's true, but there is no 1,4 high-high equivalent. For the 2,3, I can do a 2,d+3 / d,3 to get a high-low.

But I guess that's just the major difference I guess between Tekken and VF. We sometimes have to remember ourselves where the hit is going to land. Most cases, the up-forward-down corresponds with high-medium-low, but there are definitely exceptions. Sometimes there is still some logic in this though, when a combo uses the front arm and leg, you generally get quick combos, and they are often high/low. But the logic starts to fall apart here if you look hard enough.

No. 1+4,2,4 is Jun/Jin/Asuka's White Crane combo, which is four strikes. Do you see what I meant about inconsistency and confusion?

Sorry, the manner of counting confused me. I've always read square,triangle,circle,cross as 1,2,3,4. But you mean (from my perspective) 1+3. Now actually, 1,3 is equivalent to 1+3. So, this combo really just reads 1,3,2,3, and executes accordingly. Because 1+3 isn't used for a different move, you can also execute it as 1+3.

3,2,4,3,1+4,2,2,1,2 is an actual Jin 10-string from TTT. I didn't indicate directions because there are none.
Spot the irony.

I get it. But like I said, the 10 strings are basically short-cuts. And each button in the string still corresponds to the limb.

And guys, thanks for the videos. That helped a lot. I didn't watch all of them, but a fair few. Does one of them demo the pulling of a kick/punch? That really interests me, and I would consider that a big advantage of VF over Tekken.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

For the 2,3, I can do a 2,d+3 / d,3 to get a high-low.

For anyone not following this, this is a very daft line! I might even make it a .sig

 

[cthellis42]

Is there a "Let Virtua Fighter Decide" website? I think not!

 

[London Geezer]

For anyone not following this, this is a very daft line! I might even make it a .sig

... there's people actually following this??

 

[archangelmorph]

Wow after reading some of the posts in this thread (particularly the VF vs Tekken related ones..) i'm quite suprised as to how intimate some people are with their knowledge of the intricacies of such fighting games.. And I thought my technical knowledge of playing games like VF or Tekken was good

Personally I really don't see what all the fuss is about regarding both these games.. I thing they both have vast merits but offer very different play mechanics (favouring VF to be the more technical of the two IMO)..

I haven't actually played much VF since I was new to the series at VF4 but I did manage to spend an incredibly long time playing and trying to master the game during my time with it.. VF seems to me to offer a much more natural/instinctive play style since i found its not out of the ordinary to be able to learn chains and combos through estimation which seem to more often than not bring expected results.. This leads to a more *personal* fighter IMO giving players a very systematic and standardized method of combat which differss from player to player but I tend to find that a player can play relatively similarly with one character than he/she can with most others..

Tekken on the other hand seems to be a little more "arcadey" (in a sense, but obviously not as much as say DoA or maybe the dreaded MK.. *shiver*..)
I tend to find that the diferences between the characters movesets and lack of a significant degree of standardization with regard to button mapping for the characters makes the game much more diverse. IMO Tekken characters play a little more "believebly" considering the fact that each character plays distinctly differently from the others (not to mention the animations for character movements, interactions and collisions are usually much more natural..) It's common to find that with Tekken a player can play drastically differently with one character than another player would with the same, also the same player would play drastically differently with one character as they would with every other in the game (which one would expect considering the diversity of fighting styles present in the game)..

The sheer difficultly of a master being able to instantly "pickup and play" with a character he/she has never played with before only adds to the joy of the game IMO and makes trying out each character, learning their moves and developing a fighting style (per character) to suit ones style of play (per character) only add to the depth of the game making it a strength in definitely more ways than one..

In my oppinion both games are vastly different when you look at things in a much deeper light but such differences IMO are really only strengths to the style, depth and character of each title and are in NO WAY advantages/disadvantages to be used to compare with other quality fighting games in the way they have been compared here..

A game like DoA can instantly be viewed as a less enjoyable game IMO however considering the play mechanics and focus on fast reflexes hinders the game from having the kind of depth that allows players the chance to get better with time and experience as one would expect from a fighter.. DoA seems to favour rapid attacks and reflex counters over smart, got-time-to-think-about-your-next-move, tactical combat which can get *really* frustrating especially when you've been practicing on the game for several months only to get whooped by your 7 yr old brother whose never played the game before..

But I guess the above scenario is possible in any fighter, however much much more common in DoA than any other..

Sorry for the long rant.. I just thought peoples views expressed in this thread were very interesting and so I wanted to share my own..

 

[Shifty Geezer]

... there's people actually following this??

I think 3 or 4, seeing as they're still posting!

 

[ban25]

Again, I'm starting to understand. You are saying that you can pull a punch or a kick to create a fakey? I haven't seen this in the example videos

What he's talking about is cancelling out of a string, so instead of doing PPPK you can do something like PPGP. But VF also has moves that you can 'pull' or fake, and that's the guard cancel I referred to above. All characters have several moves that can be guard cancelled -- off the top of my head, Aoi has a few (a sweep that can be cancelled) and so does Jacky. Sarah has several kicks that actually guard cancel into her flamingo stance, which is really useful to keep the other player guessing.