The technology of Alan Wake *spawn

[nightshade]

The contrary. Their comments avoids saying native res and says the obvious that applies to all games. Different buffer sizes like shadowmap res, PP etc. Their response is well written but clearly in a manner to confuse the non tech oriented people in an attempt to avoid touching final native res.

Indeed...It happens everytime whenever a game's native reso is found to be subHD. Normally the first response from devs is that they output at 720p & people take that as the native reso...or in some cases they like to play with words confusing the fans, as the Remedy dev did this time.

I mean I promise you there is no game with shadowmap buffer the same size as frame buffer!

Correct you are, master Yoda

 

[fusy]

The contrary. Their comments avoids saying native res and says the obvious that applies to all games. Different buffer sizes like shadowmap res, PP etc. Their response is well written but clearly in a manner to confuse the non tech oriented people in an attempt to avoid touching final native res/framebuffer.

I understand the console limits, the compromises devs need to make in order to release a decent final product and all, but what do we ACTUALLY know about the engine and/or tricks they're using? we're judging videos and pictures here, while those who could actually played the game thought that the game ran at 720p. now, where they fooled? maybe, if so, then the people from Remedy are genius.

The way I see it is that their tech allowed them to build up the final picture by combining different resolutions, which to our eyes will look as a magnificent 720p image.

Now, no one at this point can state that this game is 540p, until there'll be clear evidence that proves it. Both 540p and 720p supporters are 50% wrong and 50% right, imo.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Two similar settings (to a degree), similar resolution. Is it a trend? Too complex engines? Is the long development process a coincidence? May be these games """rushed""" in some way?

There's only so much performance and memory to be exploited, but the expectations for higher and higher visual fidelity won't take that into account. Add in the general audience's complete unawareness and total lack of interest about the actual resolution, and the way for the developers is clear - trade off pixel density for new features.

 

[Neb]

I

The way I see it is that their tech allowed them to build up the final picture by combining different resolutions, which to our eyes will look as a magnificent 720p image.

Of course the game does lots of effects and looks great IMO. Though it will never give the same clarity as a would 1280x720 pixels do. Less pixels means less clarity especially the bigger the display size is. But they do what they can with given hardware and bluriness should not be much of concern as some of the more popular titles have been sub-HD or used Quincunx that also blurs frames. And becouse it is uniform it doesn't stand out until you compare it to other non sub-HD or Quincunx affected titles... but why compare?

Now, no one at this point can state that this game is 540p, until there'll be clear evidence that proves it. Both 540p and 720p supporters are 50% wrong and 50% right, imo.

Counting the polygon steps seems to indicate ~540p and Remedies statement avoids touching the framebuffer res. It all points to sub-HD res. But either way the other highlights of the engine and game should not be discarded. I mean some of the most popular games like COD5/6 are sub-HD (1024x600) and people like the IQ.

 

[Neb]

Indeed...It happens everytime whenever a game's native reso is found to be subHD. Normally the first response from devs is that they output at 720p & people take that as the native reso...or in some cases they like to play with words confusing the fans, as the Remedy dev did this time.

Yup and I dont blame them as it causes internet rage on many parts and puts other achievements in the graphical department and gameplay in the shadows.

I mean I promise you there is no game with shadowmap buffer the same size as frame buffer!

Correct you are, master Yoda

:bows:

 

[i nerini del buio]

It is still uscaled though why avoid using the good 360 scaler and instead loose shader perfomance?

maybe to have better scaling quality than x360 scaler's?
just guessing, i'm no expert :smile:

 

[corduroygt]

A better scaler (The best method I know is bicubic) would cost even more performance though. Can one use the 360 scaler only just before outputting or can it also be used when constructing the framebuffer?

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Most games are rendering the HUD elements in 720p, so they have to scale the framebuffer on their own so that it can be combined with them...

 

[AlNom]

The hardware scaler is the last step.

I would be extremely curious if they ended up using FP16 for HDR lighting...

 

[brain_stew]

Would anyone like to translate that into English for the dummies like myself?

Its 540p.

If it's upscaled, I don't understand the significance of 720p. Becouse from what I understand, the Xbox 360 OS does upscaling. That means the original output should be less than that.

If it in indeed is 720p upscaled, then what would happen if I set my 360 in 1080p mode? It'll upscale the already upscaled 720p image?

Yes, just like most "sub-HD" 360 games, COD4 is a perfect example of a game that works like this. Its done so that the HUD remains sharp and readable.

 

[nightshade]

The hardware scaler is the last step.

I would be extremely curious if they ended up using FP16 for HDR lighting...

80MB framebuffer, A2C for foliage & given how Xenos doesn't support alpha blending in FP16.
Yea FP16 can be a possibility..you never know. [However I don't see a broader of color palate in Alan Wake...but then maybe that's just me]

 

[assurdum]

old quote? that's the last message we got from the actual creator of the game, which should mean more than simple suppositions. But it looks like you lot are eager to demonstrate the game being sub-hd and thus discredit Remedy's statement.

Said the game is 540p discredit the Remedy 's statement? The quote was posted before than yours for this I said 'old' & judging the matters not talking clearly of 720p native but some parts etc etc; to me seems an implicit admission of 540p rendering.

 

[HollovVpo1nt]

I think that Remedy should give a lecture on the tech. Although this is all interesting, I fail understand how the game outputs 720p without beeing affected by the 360's scaler and at the same time have 540p geometry. I'm missing the step from 540p to 720p. There has to be something in between. I doubt it's a custom scaler beouse the 360's scaler would require less recources.

 

[nightshade]

I mentioned the case of Ratchet & Clank games few pages back, it could work out essentially the same way ie. rendering at subHD & then reconstructing the image with AA @720p. Though I am not exactly sure how this happens.

But all I can say now is...Patience ! We'll get to know everything about the game when the time comes.

 

[camer999]

Could they be doing it like ratchet and clank (low native res) then using AA to reconstruct 720p? Could that be why all the people that previewed the game never commented on on blurryness or the look of upscaling? Could that also be why remedy said that it combined to make a 720p image or all thempost processing makes it simply seem like 720p?

 

[LightHeaven]

I mentioned the case of Ratchet & Clank games few pages back, it could work out essentially the same way ie. rendering at subHD & then reconstructing the image with AA @720p. Though I am not exactly sure how this happens.

But all I can say now is...Patience ! We'll get to know everything about the game when the time comes.

Could they be doing it like ratchet and clank (low native res) then using AA to reconstruct 720p? Could that be why all the people that previewed the game never commented on on blurryness or the look of upscaling? Could that also be why remedy said that it combined to make a 720p image or all them post processing makes it simply seem like 720p?

But reconstructing a 720p image wouldn't imply that you shouldn't be able to tell the final image wasn't actually rendered in 720p? Or it will have a upscaled look, only better?

How was Ratchet resolution determined anyway? By pixel counting, or the developer had a lecture about it or something like that?

 

[jlippo]

I think that Remedy should give a lecture on the tech. Although this is all interesting, I fail understand how the game outputs 720p without beeing affected by the 360's scaler and at the same time have 540p geometry. I'm missing the step from 540p to 720p. There has to be something in between. I doubt it's a custom scaler beouse the 360's scaler would require less recources.

Simplest way is to use 540p image as a texture and render it into 720p buffer with 2 triangles filling the screen.
In the same pass do everything else you need, like a hud.

I mentioned the case of Ratchet & Clank games few pages back, it could work out essentially the same way ie. rendering at subHD & then reconstructing the image with AA @720p. Though I am not exactly sure how this happens.

I'm pretty sure that every buffer that leaves eDram must be resolved into a main ram, this would mean that you cannot access the sub-samples with shaders for a reconstruction.
I'm sure someone here can confirm if this is right or wrong.

 

[Billy Idol]

Question to the guys who played Siren(PS3): how is the actual image quality of this game (as it has the same resolution+AA) on a LCD screen??

 

[Rolf N]

Question to the guys who played Siren(PS3): how is the actual image quality of this game (as it has the same resolution+AA) on a LCD screen??

It's pretty good overall. Textures aren't that sharp, which you can easily blame the low resolution for. The film-grain effects and overall low contrast hide that pretty well.

I don't think the game does anything remarkable tech-wise. The virtual absence of edge jaggies is quite pleasant in itself though.

I consider it kind of the dirty secret of all game graphics that no matter how limited they are, as long as they're consistent, you'll get used to it within 10 minutes anyway.

 

[Kameradschaft]

But reconstructing a 720p image wouldn't imply that you shouldn't be able to tell the final image wasn't actually rendered in 720p? Or it will have a upscaled look, only better?

How was Ratchet resolution determined anyway? By pixel counting, or the developer had a lecture about it or something like that?

Well R&C: Tools Of Destruction had very good IQ at least on my set and didn't looked blurry or sub-HD at all..also the impressions from the ones that have seen the game in action like blim from gamersyde said it looked great when demonstrated on a big HDTV.

The most confusing part in Remedy's answer is that whole bit about feeding the 360's scaler with a 720p signal..I guess we have to wait and see the game in action on our sets to judge, though I'm sure and hope that digitalfoundry will have an in-depth analysis on the game really soon.