The quest for fluidity in 3D - 60Hz+ through image processing?

Grall

Invisible Member
Legend
Having recently purchased a modern Samsung TV, I was struck by how efficient the image processing capability is oftentimes. Watching ordinarily juddering 24fps movies, the screen updates totally smoothly much of the time, despite the low original framerate.

So I've been thinking... Considering the TV is able to smooth the framerate quickly, cheaply and without using much power (the full TV set draws less than 70W, for a panel over a meter across, diagonally), why use billions of transistors and a hundred watts or more of power to draw 60 unique, high-resolution frames that won't really be uniquely recognizable anyway.

Why not settle for half framerate, and then make up the rest with image processing?

I'm not sure what technology is used to accomplish the results, some kind of realtime morphing I suppose, but it's obviously much much less resource intensive, so surely there could be a big benefit here.

Interpolating pixels to raise the resolution often causes blurryness, but at least I can't see any artefacts at all by interpolating/morphing entire frames. It's not as sexy as drawing unique frames, and there might be some issues with latency - a TV set probably buffers 2-3 frames in order to perform its magic. However if this tech was integrated at a more fundamental level with the whole rendering chain designed around it, with it in mind, then surely a lot of latency could be eliminated.

What do you people think? Maybe I should go take out a patent right now for a method and system for improving frame rates in a 3D hardware rendering device? :LOL:
 
I don't think this is good solution for every application. I rather need those 60 unique frames in my fast paced racing games or FPS. Not so much in strategy, RPG games.

Besides, first thing I went on disabling in my new Samsung TV was Motion Plus and similar options.
Just can't stand watching movies 'enhanced' like that. Makes them feel cheap to me :)
 
Besides, first thing I went on disabling in my new Samsung TV was Motion Plus and similar options.
Just can't stand watching movies 'enhanced' like that. Makes them feel cheap to me :)
Oh, come on, I use the SVP filter on my PC to watch all the movies and TV shows. It just needs time to get used to. ;)
 
Grall, in my anecdotal survey of people (3 including you) with a TV using frame interpolation you're the first to like it. The other two turned off the feature because it was annoying.

On to your question though. A movie seems like it would benefit from interpolation more than a game. Part of what people like about 60 Hz rendering isn't smoothness, but response time.
 
In terms of "smoothness" and aliasing the idea of using post-processing to generate intermediate frames is almost directly analogous to post-processing anti-aliasing techniques like FXAA and MLAA: you run some sort of algorithm that analyzes the image in order to reconstruct higher-frequency details that weren't adequately sampled. The same primary pro's and con's apply to both cases: it's cheaper than taking more samples, but you have limited information to work with which means you might completely miss certain things. In rasterization this is usually things like thin geometry that pops in and out of the screen as the camera moves, while in terms of temporal aliasing it might be something that moves so quickly across the screen that you never actually render a frame where you see the object. It's also possible to incorrectly reconstruct features because of the limited input data, which actually happens all of the time with FXAA/MLAA.
 
Dont know if its related but the new hobbit film has a version shot at 48fps and a lot of people dont like it.
 
Meh, fuck the fossils ... now they know how I felt with every fucking panning shot in the last 10-15 years, I think gamers will have a slightly different perception especially as far as action scenes are concerned.

Hell, maybe Bay action scenes will finally become decipherable.
 
Dont know if its related but the new hobbit film has a version shot at 48fps and a lot of people dont like it.

That not liking bit was in a preview where they showed the 2D version in 48fps I think. The theatres now show the 3D version at 48fps only, where apparently most people do like it. Or so I've heard. The 2D showing uses 24fps still.

I'm very skeptical. I've seen 60fps Pixar stuff once or twice and vastly preferred it.
 
Dont know if its related but the new hobbit film has a version shot at 48fps and a lot of people dont like it.
That's because many people are actually stupid.

No, seriously. If you think something is more artistically accomplished, or valuable or whatever because of a juddering framerate, then you don't belong amongst rational, intelligent people, and might not even be able to be kept in furnished rooms.
 
Ive never seen a 48fps movie/video as far as I know but i cant imagine how i can be worse than 24fps
Find any 1080i transport stream video (usually from any HD sports channel) then use frame doubling de-interlacing during playback and here you go.
 
Ive never seen a 48fps movie/video as far as I know but i cant imagine how i can be worse than 24fps

Well, it has this soap opera effect...you can test it if you have a TV with 'motion enhancing' options...I only saw a short clip, but it did look indeed unexpected and weired.
 
Well, it has this soap opera effect...you can test it if you have a TV with 'motion enhancing' options...I only saw a short clip, but it did look indeed unexpected and weired.

That's interpolating frames that don't actually exist, though. Not the same thing as being shot at twice the FPS.
 
That's interpolating frames that don't actually exist, though. Not the same thing as being shot at twice the FPS.

Yep, I know...but the visual effect is in both cases the soap opera look...maybe the final release of Hobbit is different, will watch it in the holidays.
 
Can you explain the "soap opera effect"?

It makes what you watching look like it's a cheap daytime soap opera. It's hard to discern why. Motion looks hyper realistic, but it looks worse than most TV.
I don't think it's the difference between interpolation and real framerate.

There is a side by side YouTube video that demonstrates the same effect starting with the high rate film.

My projector has motion compensation, and it really is odd looking. Works pretty well on sports if you don't get too aggressive with the setting.
But even my GF thinks it looks odd, and makes movies look like they are low budget, and she wouldn't have any idea what the feature does.
 
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