The non-standard game interfaces discussion thread (move, voice, vitality, etc.)

[Shifty Geezer]

Yeah, I don't generally think the fact that Kinect has 3-4 clones each of Wii Fit, Wii Sports and Just Dance means it better serves the casual audience.

It's not about serving them, but appealing to them. Even the hypothetical situation where Wii was not created, and instead three title like a Mario Galaxy clone, Wii sports, and Wii Play appeared on XB360 such that they would be just as much fun for those same people who bought those games on Wii. They would not have sold anything like as well as the Wii equivalents. Existence of fun titles is not enough in itself to attract custom, which is the point to marketing. You can have the best product and sell very little, while a rival sells bucketloads of an inferior version because they reach the market with the message. Three perfect casual titles in amongst a sea of core titles will not communicate the same 'casual fun' of those three titles on a box with no core games.

Going back to my fishing analogy, there's no point going after a worm eater if you're seeding the water with bread - you'll just attract the bread feeders. A 'core' platform will attract shoals of core gamers, and the casuals will see them and stay clear. Broadly speaking.

Eye Pet has also been in development for a hell of a lot longer than something like Kinectimals. It also uses augmented reality, has a unique aesthetic and appears to offer far more activities to play around with.

And has it sold many millions and created the idea of PS3 as a casual platform? I believe not. The image of PS3 is different to the image of Wii, so people who would like EyePet end up overlooking it because they haven't got an eye on the paltform. If there's no market awareness, the products won't sell even if they're perfect for the market - if only they'd actually try it. And Sony continue to communicate a mixed message. People are becoming aware of Kinect as the 'new thing' to check out, and they'll be able to go in store and try it. Kinect has an aura of originality. Even if Move offers a better 'casual' experience that Joe Public will enjoy more than Kinect, or a more rounded whole-family experience, the interest to give it a go seems lacking given the lack of non-gamer noise surrounding the system. And without casual interest, casual titles won't sell so there's no point making them, in which case there'll be even less reason for casual interest, and the platform will end up a core-only experience.

I need only point to EyeToy to show how a lost message can kill off your perfect platform. Which was Kinect-like in freefom, Wii-like in originality, and fizzled out. The PS brand had its shot, but now that's been and gone and is old news, camera stuff on PS isn't attracting the same interest that EyeToy did, leaving the rivals to offer something new which garners all the attention.

 

[liolio]

http://www.gametrailers.com/episode/bonusround/406?ch=3&sd=1

I find Patcher's opinion pretty much spot on.

 

[Arwin]

http://www.gametrailers.com/episode/bonusround/406?ch=3&sd=1

I find Patcher's opinion pretty much spot on.

Which is? I haven't seen Chapter 3 yet, and I can't see it at work.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Going back to my fishing analogy, there's no point going after a worm eater if you're seeding the water with bread - you'll just attract the bread feeders. A 'core' platform will attract shoals of core gamers, and the casuals will see them and stay clear. Broadly speaking.

So Kinect is screwed, if I read you right?

And has it sold many millions and created the idea of PS3 as a casual platform? I believe not. The image of PS3 is different to the image of Wii, so people who would like EyePet end up overlooking it because they haven't got an eye on the paltform. If there's no market awareness, the products won't sell even if they're perfect for the market - if only they'd actually try it. And Sony continue to communicate a mixed message. People are becoming aware of Kinect as the 'new thing' to check out, and they'll be able to go in store and try it. Kinect has an aura of originality. Even if Move offers a better 'casual' experience that Joe Public will enjoy more than Kinect, or a more rounded whole-family experience, the interest to give it a go seems lacking given the lack of non-gamer noise surrounding the system. And without casual interest, casual titles won't sell so there's no point making them, in which case there'll be even less reason for casual interest, and the platform will end up a core-only experience.

I don't see how you can hold that Kinect can somehow transcend the core stigma of the 360 in a way the PS Move cannot. Playstation already has more casual appeal thanks to the PS2 and titles like Singstar than the 360 could even dream of. I don't disagree that MS is going after casuals hard with Kinect, I just think they overestimate the appeal of their device weighed against the Wii's established dominance, the PS3's appeal as a convergence device with Blu-ray and the 360's own reputation as a dedicated Halo/CoD machine. Not to mention a number of troubling technical gotchas like 4 player having yet to be demonstrated and the inability to function while a user is seated. Sure, they feel confident they can solve those problem before it ships, but they've presumably been working on this for a whole year and half the things they showed in that original faked-up demo reel are just impossible with the device today.

you can bring that back to standard ps3 and 360 controllers , but many find them too complicated and many find the wii remote system and parts to complicated.

Yeah, I know that's the company line at MS, but I don't even find it intuitively true, let alone backed up by actual evidence. I think for every person you show me who is too scared of technology to pick up a wiimote, I can show you one who wouldn't be able to cope with hands-free motion tracking and gestures.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

So Kinect is screwed, if I read you right?

How so? I was saying Move is going to have more trouble attracting the casual sector because they message is more diluted. Kinect is clearly targeting the casual sector.

I don't see how you can hold that Kinect can somehow transcend the core stigma of the 360...

Because it's being heavily pushed and is getting daytime TV coverage where Move isn't. That only shows Kinect is reaching out in a way PS isn't.

 

[liolio]

Which is? I haven't seen Chapter 3 yet, and I can't see it at work.

I hope didn't misunderstand something:
Kinect potential is that great for casual gamers and people still not playing video games.
Ms didn't show anything that could attract core/hardcore gamers.
Till casuals will have to experience it, tough if core gamers don't give them the chance.
Conclusion => price and marketing are of the highest importance hence why Ms is still considering pricing. For him the magic price would be 99$/€ marketing will already have to be huge to make casual/non gamers aware of the product and higher price could prove prohibitive for core gamers (with cascading effect on market awareness about the product). It also think that depending on supply MS may decide to go with 150$ and maximize profit but that would imply that they sure to sell everything they get. He still think 99$/€ as the magic price /safest strategy for Ms.

 

[Brad Grenz]

How so? I was saying Move is going to have more trouble attracting the casual sector because they message is more diluted. Kinect is clearly targeting the casual sector.

The PS3's entire marketing profile has been "It Only Does Everything" for a while now. PS Move is just going to add another layer to that catch phrase. This fall we'll have a blitz of (probably hilarious) Kevin Butler adds showing off casual titles for their motion controller, and oh yeah, it plays Blu-ray and streams Netflix and everything else you could imagine. MS, on the other hand, has a schizophrenic marketing message. They're going to push Kinect while pretending the 360 isn't the hardest of hardcore platforms. I have to wonder how big "Xbox" will even be on the eventual packaging for the Kinect bundle. Will it get separate shelf space? If that's how they splice, won't people just think of Kinect as an expensive Wii? The software certainly does little to differentiate itself. The 360 will still be a dedicated Halo/CoD box with its own parallel marketing. And the PS3 will be pushed a jack of all trades, making it seem like a great value. It just seems foolhardy of MS to try and pit their weakness (casual) directly against Nintendo's strength. Every attempt MS has made in the past to appeal to casuals has crashed and burned (Lips, You're in the Movies).

 

[Arwin]

While I don't disagree with anything directly here, the easy counter-point to this would be that a casual user who sees Dance Central on the Xbox with Kinect, will only see a system that plays Dance Central, just as with Nintendo he/she only sees a Wii Sports box. This is the extreme opposite of the PS3's 'it only does everything' message, which requires people to have a wider view of how a single device can suit their multiple needs.

I'm not saying that either approach is by definition better than the other. But it may well be that for approaching a completely new market, Microsoft's is the more effective.

That's not to say that Microsoft has a tough road ahead of them - Nintendo already was in a strong position when it launched their assault on the casual market, through their success in the handheld space, with 'young' gamers, and through fond memories of the days of old of older players for whom Nintendo is still a household name.

Most important in this is that Nintendo has a tremendous amount of knowhow and experience with this audience, either directly or indirectly (the transition of what do kids like to what do kids like that they can play with their parents is a natural one), as well as with developing an integrated hardware/software vision to support targeting their intended audience.

I question, by the way, Microsoft's ability to make their device cheap. The fact alone that it has a motor that allows it to swivel and tilt and needs a high power source leading to an external adapter for non-"Slim" 360s suggests they probably won't be able to go under $100. I think they may not want to either - all will depend whether or not they're going to focus on selling new systems, in which case they'll make bundles relatively cheaper and standalones relatively more expensive, or whether they want existing 360 owners to 'jump in' first (in which case you're at least in theory also selling them to PC owners).

From the position they are currently in, selling new systems with the device seems more natural as a first approach, particularly since they look like they won't have more than a party type game ready to go at launch anyway (partly due to not being able to effectively use Kinect while sitting at this stage in the development process).

Move, on the other hand, means to specificially compete with the Wii, just by doing everything the Wii can do better. The biggest selling point for them is going to be showing that the software is there on all fronts (from casual to hardcore) and that the additional cost of the PS3 setup including Move is justified by all the additional stuff it can do. I think the latter is always the most difficult message to communicate.

 

[Squilliam]

Im still going for $99 standalone, $199 Arcade with Kinect and $299 250GB with Kinect. It just seems like very simple and easy prices to deal with. I think they'd get more mileage out of bundling Kinect than cutting the price of the Arcade by $50. I suspect they will have the 120GB SKU as a standalone and bring that out from time to time as a value bundle for people whom are completely uninterested in Kinect.

 

[Arwin]

Im still going for $99 standalone, $199 Arcade with Kinect and $299 250GB with Kinect. It just seems like very simple and easy prices to deal with. I think they'd get more mileage out of bundling Kinect than cutting the price of the Arcade by $50. I suspect they will have the 120GB SKU as a standalone and bring that out from time to time as a value bundle for people whom are completely uninterested in Kinect.

Keep dreaming! I think Microsoft would already be happy with $299 for the Arcade with Kinect. That would put them at a $100 advantage versus the PS3, and only a $100 disadvantage versus the Wii. They may make it to $199 next holiday, maybe.

 

[Squilliam]

Keep dreaming! I think Microsoft would already be happy with $299 for the Arcade with Kinect. That would put them at a $100 advantage versus the PS3, and only a $100 disadvantage versus the Wii. They may make it to $199 next holiday, maybe.

One can dream can one not? Anyway how can they sell Kinect games if they cannot sell Kinect hardware? The likely reason in my mind why they pared down the interface specifications considerably is so that they could indeed bundle it at the right price.

 

[Arwin]

One can dream can one not? Anyway how can they sell Kinect games if they cannot sell Kinect hardware? The likely reason in my mind why they pared down the interface specifications considerably is so that they could indeed bundle it at the right price.

I'm not sure they pared down that much - they just optimised. I think having the processing done on the 360 is more future proof (including migrating that to the next generation, various PC configurations, etc.) and more flexible.

It's also not just paring down as the motor for tilt/swivel was added. And there's a tonne of marketing and R&D that went into this, they can't just have the hardware loss-lead a tonne either. The price on all the websites is $149 now for Kinect, and unless they can't sell their initial shipments at that price, that's not going to change in the foreseable future.

 

[obonicus]

Yeah, I don't generally think the fact that Kinect has 3-4 clones each of Wii Fit, Wii Sports and Just Dance means it better serves the casual audience. If anything, Kinect software titles will have trouble standing out in a glut of similar games. But the Move has solid titles in the Dance, Fitness, Party and Sports and Virtual Pet spaces. It also has a Boomblox-type game, something Kinect does not have. And it has that all in addition to core titles and cross-over titles. If you think Move is weak on casual games, you just aren't paying much attention. I think Start the Party is really being overlooked, and probably should have been the pack-in game for the Move bundle. It has a lot of character and puts the unique qualities of Move, augmented reality specifically, to great use. Eye Pet has also been in development for a hell of a lot longer than something like Kinectimals. It also uses augmented reality, has a unique aesthetic and appears to offer far more activities to play around with.

The problem here is offering something new -- if you're going to just play the games you can play on Wii, I don't see a reason for picking up Kinect or Move. Particularly if the price is much higher -- if Kinect is $150, it won't matter if Dance Central is much more precise than Just Dance. The audience for those games doesn't really value precision so highly.

 

[liolio]

The problem here is offering something new -- if you're going to just play the games you can play on Wii, I don't see a reason for picking up Kinect or Move. Particularly if the price is much higher -- if Kinect is $150, it won't matter if Dance Central is much more precise than Just Dance. The audience for those games doesn't really value precision so highly.

That's not precision at least the dancing game check you do the proper moves, it doesn't only check if you're waving your arms in synch. Clearly the wii rendition is a maracas game if anything.
Not to say that a 150$ price would be risky bet tho.

 

[Squilliam]

I'm not sure they pared down that much - they just optimised. I think having the processing done on the 360 is more future proof (including migrating that to the next generation, various PC configurations, etc.) and more flexible.

It's also not just paring down as the motor for tilt/swivel was added. And there's a tonne of marketing and R&D that went into this, they can't just have the hardware loss-lead a tonne either. The price on all the websites is $149 now for Kinect, and unless they can't sell their initial shipments at that price, that's not going to change in the foreseable future.

Its a ton of R+D but they are amortizing the costs over several different related product ranges. Its not just Kinect which is coming out of the R+D effort there are also several related products coming out and from what I saw their Israel R+D group is working on twelve distinct areas in relation with regards to car, security and other applications.

Their profit model isn't P = revenue on units sold - fixed cost - variable cost. Its more complicated than that because of Live subscriptions, media content, games and console sales. Its not enough to say that because at X price they will be more profitable on unit sales and leave it at that if they lose out on other downstream revenue.

From what I saw they cut down on the internal component costs and they decreased the specifications of their camera units as well as the internal processing units. Just by bundling the camera with the console they will save the typical 20%-25% console accessory markups which retailers demand as consoles typically only have margins in the order of a few %. On top of that they save a few dollars on power supplies, packaging and shipping costs.

You're free to disagree here but I simply see $149 as too expensive for mass market adoption especially competing against a Wii for $199 with a fully established games library. This is why a $199 or $249 Arcade makes sense because at least its in the right ball park to be competitive with the former being preferable than the latter to me.

 

[scooby_dooby]

You'll only need the R1 button typically, which is easy to do. The d-pad is also within easy reach. Most people that have tried it found it perfectly serviceable. I personally played through most of Flower and Motorstorm 2 that way. Also, the sixaxis works better for this than the DS3, because the sixaxis is very light.

Sixaxis would be ok, but the DS3 or X360 are just too heavy for comfortable use. At the end of the day, it's a no-go proposition for developers, imo, they need to target the proper hardware, which doesn't exist at the moment on 360.

Yes, and that reason is that the Wii by default just came with a single remote. No regular game controller, that was (and still is) an optional extra.

Right, and if you want to play game which require more functionality, you buy the purpose-built accessory. 360 does not have that, and some hacky suggestion to hold the controller is insufficient. At least with move, the accesory is there, so developers can target it, and use the controller as a fallback.

In other words, the Move can do everything the Wii controller do (sometimes much) better than the Wii controller, and can do a fair number of things that Kinect can do too

Yup, it's pretty much right in the middle. Which is precisely the problem. How do you market that? What's the hook?

The point here is: sure, Move is a Wii-too device to some extent.

I agree from a technical standpoint. But the point is, in the eyes of a consumer, Kinect is unique, it's something new and cool. It has the novelty factor which *might* allow it to sell. Move does not.

IMO, Move is pretty much DOA, it has no chance. Kinect could possibly be successful, or not, alot depends on whether they can iron out the kinks, and what the pricing model is (knowing MS they will F it up).

 

[Prophecy2k]

IMO, Move is pretty much DOA, it has no chance. Kinect could possibly be successful, or not, alot depends on whether they can iron out the kinks, and what the pricing model is (knowing MS they will F it up).

I strongly disagree... ;-)

If Sony can do enough to get pointer controls into all the big name 3rd party shooters then they can sell a very respectable number of Moves to their existing and growing core fanbase.

Then you have their first and 3rd party causal stuff, and their ability to get up-rezzed Wii software and Sony really has the best of both worlds. Anyone in the market looking for a console for the living room that has "HD core games for daddy" and "casual games for mummy and little tommy" (as well as Blu-Ray thrown in for free) could pick up a PS3 and have access to all the biggest traditional and motion control games. That IMHO makes the PS3 the best value proposition on the market for anyone looking for a home entertainment system to please the whole family.

I don't see why Move being similar to the Wii makes it automatically DOA... ?!? :-S

I don't see any reason thus far why Sony would fail catastrophically with Move. I reckon it'd either do really well (maybe not Nintendo Wii well, but def 10s of millions of units well), or fairly mediocre like the original eyetoy.

Contrary to what a lot of Ninty fanboys on the internet seem to think i do believe there's enough room on the market for more motion control devices similar to the Wii-mote.

 

[obonicus]

IMO, Move is pretty much DOA, it has no chance. Kinect could possibly be successful, or not, alot depends on whether they can iron out the kinks, and what the pricing model is (knowing MS they will F it up).

I'm not sure if it'll be DOA -- the Move has the Wii's ubiquity going for it. Like it or not, the Wii's control paradigm is here to stay. Which means a lot of up-ports, naturally. That doesn't mean it'll be a massive success, but rather a moderately successful peripheral.

 

[rabidrabbit]

I agree from a technical standpoint. But the point is, in the eyes of a consumer, Kinect is unique, it's something new and cool. It has the novelty factor which *might* allow it to sell. Move does not.

Well, maybe in USA where the PS2 EyeToy wasn't much of a hit (was it even ever released there?)
But for us EU'ers, Kinect isn't that new any more. What MS has shown, people played already with their PS2's more or less.

 

[liolio]

Hum what DOA means?