The non-standard game interfaces discussion thread (move, voice, vitality, etc.)

I'm not sure. From the get go I've labeled Kinect as a watch and see thing. I really dont have a clear idea where it's headed, whether it will be popular etc. Reminds me of Sony's home. I honestly thought that could be as huge as something like wow, but I wasn't sure, I could only wait and see.

Not to cause controversy but for Move I've got a better idea. I think given the tech and cost and Sony's hardcore focus, I think it's going to have a hard time surviving long term. But of course, I could be very wrong.

I disagree with your assessment that Sony is focusing on the core gamer. They're simply using their technology to appeal to a broader audience, which is what they should be doing. Simply trying to capture the 'casual' market isn't enough to get your product off the ground, and I think Microsoft has made a huge misstep with Kinect in that regard.

They should have been commissioning more development studios to make new core experiences instead of the software that was put on demonstration during their Press Conference.

I think Sony going with Sports Champions, Start the Party, Eyepet, and a number of other casual oriented titles, as well as a good number of core experiences like Killzone and Socom is a smart thing to do, since it'll help you sell better with your existing user base and new users all the same.
 
I agree that with PS Move, Sony is broadening its audience. However Sony seems to be focusing on core gamers more at the moment.

Shuhei mentioned that they split the resources 50/50 between core and casual gaming. So far, the core games are more visible. May be this is because the first parties are mostly adding Move to existing core games. Plus we are all very familiar with these games. In addition, most of the PS Move articles are aimed at the gamers and tech crowd. I haven't seen any that's written for say, female, kids or grand parents. To be fair, they will probably get better responses by doing what they do now -- unless they throw hundreds of millions at consumer marketing.

If what Shuhei said is true, then perhaps the ground up casual games will come later ? I can't really tell by sitting here.
 
I think though in essence Sony are going after both, the problem there is the 'casual' product won't target 'casuals' as effectively as Kinect will or Wii has already done so, meaning it'll miss the mark. It's not so much they are going after the casuals with bait specifically for them, but are baiting their line with generic bait and hoping for bites from wherever, with a bit of catapulted loose feed. Ms are baiting specifically for the 'casuals', although the potential is there for them to cast a couple of lines of 'hardcore' whitebait and hook a few heavyweight 'hardcores'. But then there's already loads of hardcore bites around their lines so where's the fun in that? ;)
 
We should probably hold off on talking about how effectively Kinect targets casuals until it's out. There's a lot of bad wisdom along the lines of 'Well, it's doing some of the things Wii did so it's going to sell like the Wii', which doesn't necessarily hold up.

Unless you're talking specifically about how it'll do vs. Move, but doing more than a failure might still be a failure.
 
The EXACT same way you move the character in the Sorcery demo? Since they show using the move navigation controller which can be subbed with a regular PS3 controller there would be no reason something like this on Kinect couldn't use the standard 360 controller.

Meh. Holding the entire controller in m hand, just to use a thumbstick? That's far from ideal, and a hacky solution at best. And what happens if you need to press a button? lol, come on.
No-one is going to build a game, and invest millions, into a control scheme which requires you to hold the controller in one hand for prolonged amounts of time.

Move gives you a dedicated device, with a couple buttons, which is what you really need for any sort of serious game. There's a reason Nintendo gave you a nun-chuk with an analog stick and a trigger.
Move's far superior for traditional games, it's obvious. Unfortunately, it's little more than a Wii-Too, so I don't see how it's going to capture any real interest from the media or casuals.

@obonicus - That's all we can really speculate on at the moment. It would be impossible to predict how well Kinect will sell in relation to Wii, these things (fads) have a tendency to be unpredictable...
 
They should have been commissioning more development studios to make new core experiences instead of the software that was put on demonstration during their Press Conference.

Which is what MS have done to an extent. But they are still far more focused on expanding the market rather than just cannibalizing sales from the other two consoles.

Despite that focus, Devs have taken it on themselves to start incorporating Kinect into core games or designing core games around Kinect. It takes more time to fully develope a core title however, without it being anything but blatant shovelware. You do realize that most developer's have had their hands on this for a year or less? Only those devs close to MS have had it for longer. Compare that to Move where rumor has it that many devs were seeded with at least prototypes well before last years E3.

Meh. Holding the entire controller in m hand, just to use a thumbstick? That's far from ideal, and a hacky solution at best. And what happens if you need to press a button? lol, come on.
No-one is going to build a game, and invest millions, into a control scheme which requires you to hold the controller in one hand for prolonged amounts of time.

Sony comes to mind as they have heavily promoted the ability to use a regular controller instead of the navigation stick. Going by noises made in the thread previously here and on other gaming sites, apparently many "core" gamers feel that the navigation controller is not needed and it'll be plenty easy to use the standard controller.

After all that's the common rhetoric used when claims of Move being expensive comes up.

Regards,
SB
 
The DS3 is smaller than the 360 controller. I think the common concensus is it's better to rest the DS3 (partially) on your laps while using it a la subcontroller. If you want to use it "in the air" (e.g., standing up), or long hours, then get a subcontroller.

I think the original SIXAXIS is more suitable for this task since it is "super light".
 
Meh. Holding the entire controller in m hand, just to use a thumbstick? That's far from ideal, and a hacky solution at best. And what happens if you need to press a button? lol, come on.

You'll only need the R1 button typically, which is easy to do. The d-pad is also within easy reach. Most people that have tried it found it perfectly serviceable. I personally played through most of Flower and Motorstorm 2 that way. Also, the sixaxis works better for this than the DS3, because the sixaxis is very light.

Move gives you a dedicated device, with a couple buttons, which is what you really need for any sort of serious game. There's a reason Nintendo gave you a nun-chuk with an analog stick and a trigger.

Yes, and that reason is that the Wii by default just came with a single remote. No regular game controller, that was (and still is) an optional extra.

Move's far superior for traditional games, it's obvious. Unfortunately, it's little more than a Wii-Too, so I don't see how it's going to capture any real interest from the media or casuals.

It is a lot more than the Wii-Too, and that would have been more blatantly obvious if Nintendo hadn't developed the Wii Motion+ add-on. ;) However, even if you take that add-on into account, the Move brings augmented reality to the table and can do facial recognition/head tracking, foto and video recording and several other things because it uses a camera. In addition, it knows where it is at all times and only requires a quick recalibration if lighting conditions change considerably (there may be additional calibration needed for head-tracking and games where your dimensions matter, however). It is also much more accurate at pointing than the Wii controller.

In other words, the Move can do everything the Wii controller do (sometimes much) better than the Wii controller, and can do a fair number of things that Kinect can do too, and even there has some advantages: a lot more precise and virtually lag-free (vs regular controller), has buttons including two pressure sensitive ones, many augmented reality applications work better if there is less lag, hardly any processing overhead for (existing) games, can be easily integrated into 'regular' games, supports more than two players (currently more than two is unconfirmed for Kinect, but you could see how the field of view alone might make that very hard), and can be played sitting down ;) (currently does not work yet for Kinect, though Microsoft hopes to fix that for launch at least for NXE control)

The point here is: sure, Move is a Wii-too device to some extent: so are all devices, and all great ideas will be copied and improved upon, like the dual-analog stick, vibration and so on. But the dual analog stick proved an important extension and all I'm trying to say here is that the Move controller also goes quite a way beyond what the WiiMote is doing.

@obonicus - That's all we can really speculate on at the moment. It would be impossible to predict how well Kinect will sell in relation to Wii, these things (fads) have a tendency to be unpredictable...

I definitely agree on that one.
 
I think though in essence Sony are going after both, the problem there is the 'casual' product won't target 'casuals' as effectively as Kinect will or Wii has already done so, meaning it'll miss the mark. It's not so much they are going after the casuals with bait specifically for them, but are baiting their line with generic bait and hoping for bites from wherever, with a bit of catapulted loose feed. Ms are baiting specifically for the 'casuals', although the potential is there for them to cast a couple of lines of 'hardcore' whitebait and hook a few heavyweight 'hardcores'. But then there's already loads of hardcore bites around their lines so where's the fun in that? ;)

So what about Kinectamals is more casual than EyePet? Or what about Kinect/Wii Sports is more casual than Sports Champions? What about Start the Party, which is basically WiiPlay? All of these games have the same "casual" appeal in that they are all social oriented, very easy to play, and fun.

What people fail to realize with Sony's casual games is that they default at the easy difficulty with tons of assists and the accuracy goes out the window. I feel like some people here aren't even following Move or it's software.


Which is what MS have done to an extent. But they are still far more focused on expanding the market rather than just cannibalizing sales from the other two consoles.

Despite that focus, Devs have taken it on themselves to start incorporating Kinect into core games or designing core games around Kinect. It takes more time to fully develope a core title however, without it being anything but blatant shovelware. You do realize that most developer's have had their hands on this for a year or less? Only those devs close to MS have had it for longer. Compare that to Move where rumor has it that many devs were seeded with at least prototypes well before last years E3.

This is all just conjecture. I just don't think there is this hidden stash of unfinished titles waiting to be revealed.
 
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This is all just conjecture. I just don't think there is this hidden stash of unfinished titles waiting to be revealed.

The problem is of course that if sitting down is an issue now with Kinect, then core games will have a hard time to incorporate Kinect features alongside regular controls. As soon as the problem is fixed, then I'm sure you'll get stuff like leaning out of cover and throwing granades.
 
The problem is of course that if sitting down is an issue now with Kinect, then core games will have a hard time to incorporate Kinect features alongside regular controls. As soon as the problem is fixed, then I'm sure you'll get stuff like leaning out of cover and throwing granades.

Hopefully it get's fixed soon, they only have 2 or 3 more years of this gen left.

And the big problem with Kinect integration is the substantial processing overhead, it's not like Move where you can just drop it in, you have to design the whole engine around Kinect.

Like Turn 10 had to do, they threw out their brand new F3 engine and built aother one for their Forza Kinect title..
 
So what about Kinectamals is more casual than EyePet? Or what about Kinect/Wii Sports is more casual than Sports Champions? What about Start the Party, which is basically WiiPlay? All of these games have the same "casual" appeal in that they are all social oriented, very easy to play, and fun.

What people fail to realize with Sony's casual games is that they default at the easy difficulty with tons of assists and the accuracy goes out the window. I feel like some people here aren't even following Move or it's software.

Yeah, I don't generally think the fact that Kinect has 3-4 clones each of Wii Fit, Wii Sports and Just Dance means it better serves the casual audience. If anything, Kinect software titles will have trouble standing out in a glut of similar games. But the Move has solid titles in the Dance, Fitness, Party and Sports and Virtual Pet spaces. It also has a Boomblox-type game, something Kinect does not have. And it has that all in addition to core titles and cross-over titles. If you think Move is weak on casual games, you just aren't paying much attention. I think Start the Party is really being overlooked, and probably should have been the pack-in game for the Move bundle. It has a lot of character and puts the unique qualities of Move, augmented reality specifically, to great use. Eye Pet has also been in development for a hell of a lot longer than something like Kinectimals. It also uses augmented reality, has a unique aesthetic and appears to offer far more activities to play around with.
 
Like Turn 10 had to do, they threw out their brand new F3 engine and built aother one for their Forza Kinect title..

Im not 100% certain they have the exact same definition of 'throw out' as everyone else. I suspect they really just heavily modified it. It takes quite a while to create a new engine from scratch and 2 years just doesn't seem like enough time to do it.

Its like the RV770 to Cypress transition, they used a lot of the same or similar building blocks even though the architecture counts as a completely new one.
 
The problem is of course that if sitting down is an issue now with Kinect, then core games will have a hard time to incorporate Kinect features alongside regular controls. As soon as the problem is fixed, then I'm sure you'll get stuff like leaning out of cover and throwing granades.

That's the potential fly in the ointment there. If they cannot get Kinect to work while sitting, at least good enough, then that'll rule out integration with many core games that could benefit from it. If that's the case then we may end up having to wait for Kinect 2 with the next gen Xbox.

I'm not certain how many fat and lazy (tongue in cheek) core gamers would like to game standing. ;)

Im not 100% certain they have the exact same definition of 'throw out' as everyone else. I suspect they really just heavily modified it. It takes quite a while to create a new engine from scratch and 2 years just doesn't seem like enough time to do it.

Not much could have been thrown out. It would be patently impossible to get a new AAA engine up and running in less than 1 years time, so whatever engine they are using is either a modified Forza 3 engine, or one that's been in developement well before there was even a rumor of Kinect.

And considering they mentioned more cars on track and other enhancements to it, I'm betting on just optimization and enhancement of the current engine.

Regards,
SB
 
Yeah, I don't generally think the fact that Kinect has 3-4 clones each of Wii Fit, Wii Sports and Just Dance means it better serves the casual audience. If anything, Kinect software titles will have trouble standing out in a glut of similar games. But the Move has solid titles in the Dance, Fitness, Party and Sports and Virtual Pet spaces. It also has a Boomblox-type game, something Kinect does not have. And it has that all in addition to core titles and cross-over titles. If you think Move is weak on casual games, you just aren't paying much attention. I think Start the Party is really being overlooked, and probably should have been the pack-in game for the Move bundle. It has a lot of character and puts the unique qualities of Move, augmented reality specifically, to great use. Eye Pet has also been in development for a hell of a lot longer than something like Kinectimals. It also uses augmented reality, has a unique aesthetic and appears to offer far more activities to play around with.

I think the more casual part is in the actual control scheme and not the software.

Kinect does away with controllers for the casual games. You just need to jump in (heh) and start playing. With Sony you not only have the camera but then you have controllers and some times for some games multiple controllers.

Also we already know gears and fable will support kinect so its not like there wont be core titles supporting it. Lets also not forget that sony has 2 months longer of game releases for move than ms has for kinect this year.
 
I think the more casual part is in the actual control scheme and not the software.

Kinect does away with controllers for the casual games. You just need to jump in (heh) and start playing. With Sony you not only have the camera but then you have controllers and some times for some games multiple controllers.

For the Move the control scheme is every bit as casual as a Wii, and people managed to deal with wiimotes, nunchucks, sensor bars, calibration, etc. It remains to be seen if the public at large actually thinks having no controller is less intimidating than holding a remote.
 
For the Move the control scheme is every bit as casual as a Wii, and people managed to deal with wiimotes, nunchucks, sensor bars, calibration, etc. It remains to be seen if the public at large actually thinks having no controller is less intimidating than holding a remote.

you can bring that back to standard ps3 and 360 controllers , but many find them too complicated and many find the wii remote system and parts to complicated.
 
Unrelated did somebody try to play a cover shooter on the wii? I've the feeling that it would feel awkward with a nunchuck/wiimote.
 
Posted in the Kinect thread, but it really belongs here:

The bowling game does not detect wrist movement. Among others Jeff Gerstman points out that the dev mentioned this wasn't possible with Kinect, and the actual game uses the amount of follow through to determine spin instead (which Jeff also mentions works fine)

On the Move side, I saw an interview somewhere indicating 1 degree precision on every axis, so we have 360 steps of precision on each axis.
 
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