The non-standard game interfaces discussion thread (move, voice, vitality, etc.)
- Thread starter patsu
- Start date
upnorthsox
Veteran
Wii Fit is a game. The Wii balance board is a peripheral. There are ski and snowboarding games that use it, as well as a number of others.
It has scores, competitions, achievements and you can cheat it. It's a game
That's the balance board, fine it's game console peripheral bundled with a fitness application.
I played a bit of Move stuff today. Quite accurate, and really excellent inertial tracking even when you hide the camera.
I was very impressed with the simulation quality for Ping Pong, although it kinda hits the "uncanny valley" issue where the simulation is almost too real so it throws you off.
Pretty neat though.
I was very impressed with the simulation quality for Ping Pong, although it kinda hits the "uncanny valley" issue where the simulation is almost too real so it throws you off.
Pretty neat though.
mate you're being a bit to picky, ok game perhaps isnt the right word, software application is more accurate for this + (a huge list of other apps) eg dancing apps (wii dance) or braintraining, singstar (karaoke), buzz (ps2 quiz application), guitar hero etc but I and others (no doubt you will let slip occasionally) are still gonna call them games
I'ld agree peripheral is correct with wii-play (where u by the controller + get the game with it)
but wii fit, the majority of ppl are buying it for the idea of getting fit/losing kilo's with that (*)game they're not buying it for playing ski/snow board (*)games (hell look at how those games sold, or more accurately didnt sell
)(*)application
DonaldDuck
Newcomer
The point here is that Sony may well be losing a good opportunity of taking control of a certain amount of territory (some genres that are nos suited at all to traditional pad controller) and the lack of focus, at the moment, is dangerous for their profit.
Let´s think about FPS. It´s a "imported" genre (from PC) to a big degree and now, with on-line capabilities and improved hardware support, is stealing the show of HD consoles marketplace. I see a big on-line genre that could be a winner with appropiate control, obviously real-time strategy games, that seems really well-suited to Move. OK, RTS is a bit grey now (even Starcraft 2 isn´t a winner as their first title was) but... Why not a rennaisance?
Just imagine a game, a hardcore game, with enough charme (that´s difficult to master, I know) and really good control, a fast, competitive on-line and some sort of cooperative campaign, a sort of revival of the build and battle era. The gaming habits seem somewhat cyclic, and it´s untapped land for now on consoles.
The same can be say of FPS control. Even a fast-paced action-RPG á la Diablo can steal the show. And Diablo was all about on-line and excellent point and click control. Smooth, fast, plenty of objects. Graphics were in second place.
Sony is forgetting the point that it´s the one and only (for a very brief period of time) that has the controller and the horsepower to make a pretty on-line RTS, fast paced Action-RPG point-and-click-like game, and some sort of shooter sucedaneous with Move.
Just imagine that CoD could be played with Move in an effective, improved somewhat manner with Move-Eyetoy. For Activision that´s not a problem, there´s not rupture of player community, because it´s an PS3-only issue. And for Sony can really be the differential factor that makes the biggest franchise of the whole HD era a bit on their side.
If they want to be the hardcore player dream, I think they HAVE to push software and, more precisely, new genres (recicled from PC or whatsoever, old cases of succes in the past) and make profit the few months they have left before other takes the step. And, more important, gaining mindshare, something that Microsoft has mastered this generation.
It´s common (and very critisized) speak to describe XBOX360 as a FPS-only console. That´s unfair, but hides some truth too. Just on-line community and big selling shooters franchises make a difference. It´s Move a way for Sony to be competitive in other genres with strong on-line community support and the need of a point and click type of controller?
Greetings.
Let´s think about FPS. It´s a "imported" genre (from PC) to a big degree and now, with on-line capabilities and improved hardware support, is stealing the show of HD consoles marketplace. I see a big on-line genre that could be a winner with appropiate control, obviously real-time strategy games, that seems really well-suited to Move. OK, RTS is a bit grey now (even Starcraft 2 isn´t a winner as their first title was) but... Why not a rennaisance?
Just imagine a game, a hardcore game, with enough charme (that´s difficult to master, I know) and really good control, a fast, competitive on-line and some sort of cooperative campaign, a sort of revival of the build and battle era. The gaming habits seem somewhat cyclic, and it´s untapped land for now on consoles.
The same can be say of FPS control. Even a fast-paced action-RPG á la Diablo can steal the show. And Diablo was all about on-line and excellent point and click control. Smooth, fast, plenty of objects. Graphics were in second place.
Sony is forgetting the point that it´s the one and only (for a very brief period of time) that has the controller and the horsepower to make a pretty on-line RTS, fast paced Action-RPG point-and-click-like game, and some sort of shooter sucedaneous with Move.
Just imagine that CoD could be played with Move in an effective, improved somewhat manner with Move-Eyetoy. For Activision that´s not a problem, there´s not rupture of player community, because it´s an PS3-only issue. And for Sony can really be the differential factor that makes the biggest franchise of the whole HD era a bit on their side.
If they want to be the hardcore player dream, I think they HAVE to push software and, more precisely, new genres (recicled from PC or whatsoever, old cases of succes in the past) and make profit the few months they have left before other takes the step. And, more important, gaining mindshare, something that Microsoft has mastered this generation.
It´s common (and very critisized) speak to describe XBOX360 as a FPS-only console. That´s unfair, but hides some truth too. Just on-line community and big selling shooters franchises make a difference. It´s Move a way for Sony to be competitive in other genres with strong on-line community support and the need of a point and click type of controller?
Greetings.
Last edited by a moderator:
I think it's hard to complain though when Ubisoft's R.U.S.E. with good Move support and online play is available day one, and Under Siege, a very nice PSN title with custom map build support and all sorts of multiplayer support is coming soon?
And on the FPS side, MAG is testing Move in beta now with good results and will support it in its upcoming 2.0 release, Killzone 3 has been shown with support for it and will be released in February, Resident Evil 5 Gold is available as a Move version (I have it right here), etc.
And on the FPS side, MAG is testing Move in beta now with good results and will support it in its upcoming 2.0 release, Killzone 3 has been shown with support for it and will be released in February, Resident Evil 5 Gold is available as a Move version (I have it right here), etc.
DonaldDuck
Newcomer
Yes, it´s true, but the right word is focus. It´s like an addendum to a very vast, "soft" proposal, without density. What I was thinking of it´s something like a Diablo2-clone with Medievil franchise (for instance) with really accurate Move control.
If you can mix a good, responsible, comfortable control, a well-known franchise and and a tested-to-death game mechanic and the result could be winner. Guitar Hero is a winner, but Frequency and Amplitude had the same mechanic without the instrument... the difference in impact was huge.
The world is waiting the right Diablo clone for eras without success, and beyond the fact that word and fame is really important, I´ve played some of those clones and the big problem was control. Diablo was smooth, others wasn´t.
OK, that would imply a big budgeting, but nevertheless Sony has invested money with Home and other projects with ease in the past.
It´s just an opinion, don´t blast me... But I see Move as an opportunity to gain hardcore mindshare, that could vanish into air really fast.
Greetings.
I think what's miossing is a good God Game. Something between RUSE and Populous. God games took a hammering when everything went 3D and they were forced into a mould that didn't suit them. RUSE shows a perfect distance-and-close transition, where you could do lovely godly things, and there are lots of people who haven't experienced Populous who would actually really like to play a god. It's not an unlikely idea either - I think it was Richard Marks who spoke of the analogue trigger for picking people up or squeezing hard. That needs to be a game, not just an untapped possibility.
I wouldn't pick Diablo. Those types of loot-and-level games got a far more console-friendly makeover in titles like Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance. That's far more viceral and enjoyable to me than the distant mouse-click interface of Diablo. If you're going for an overview control scheme, you're basically talking about an RTS, only with one character in Diablo.
DonaldDuck
Newcomer
Even "freaks" genres like wargames, bundled appropiately, could be a big success.
I was thinking about he Airborne Assault saga. The AI was really brutal, allowing you control of whatever level of chain of command instantly (with different objectives, obviously) but the map was a typical google-like 2D display with abstract representation of units. Fantastic for the die-hard player that make poo with WW2 old-fashioned archives and orders of battle of the Crimean wars (me, for example) but unpleasant to the more common mortal.
What about a top-down level of detail allowing a 3D representation of squads (like the very usual, big-seller RTS of PC) but not controllable, just for show, below the big theatre of operations? The tactical IA could be streamlined and the need of a ultra-precise ultra-fast point-and-click will not be necessary, because your orders are at the company level, squad at most. The IA of the big scope of things is already done by someone, and it works; the IA of small-level micromanagement could well be "thin" and a aleatory, simplified 3D-world generator may be used to illustrate the 3D combats. Even I wonder if a Close-combat 2D scenery will be enough.
The possibilities are there. I know that I being tricked by my own tastes, but... Who knows where´s a killer application.
Greetings.
I was thinking about he Airborne Assault saga. The AI was really brutal, allowing you control of whatever level of chain of command instantly (with different objectives, obviously) but the map was a typical google-like 2D display with abstract representation of units. Fantastic for the die-hard player that make poo with WW2 old-fashioned archives and orders of battle of the Crimean wars (me, for example) but unpleasant to the more common mortal.
What about a top-down level of detail allowing a 3D representation of squads (like the very usual, big-seller RTS of PC) but not controllable, just for show, below the big theatre of operations? The tactical IA could be streamlined and the need of a ultra-precise ultra-fast point-and-click will not be necessary, because your orders are at the company level, squad at most. The IA of the big scope of things is already done by someone, and it works; the IA of small-level micromanagement could well be "thin" and a aleatory, simplified 3D-world generator may be used to illustrate the 3D combats. Even I wonder if a Close-combat 2D scenery will be enough.
The possibilities are there. I know that I being tricked by my own tastes, but... Who knows where´s a killer application.
Greetings.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Well there is Project Dust coming to PC/PS3/X360 in 2011. Unknown whether it'll support either Move or Kinect.
Regards,
SB
Have you not seen RUSE? You have the strategic overview zoomed out, and individual unit micromanagement zoomed in. Watch at least the first minute of this vid to show the scaling:
Yes, I'm both optimisitic and cautious. So far they haven't actually shown anything about a game, and have described it as more an experience. Loads of potential, but I fear it'll be little more than a novelty.
Actually and unfortunately it is currently known that it will not have Move controls, as they've said as much. They may change their mind of course, but looking at the demoes so far it looks like they've tied up the real-time terrain deformation/manipulation very strongly to the limits of the DS3. Any faster controls would result in the game no longer being able to keep up in real-time. If this game gets a Mouse controlled PC version, that could help still get Move in there, but right now it doesn't look likely.
As for Diablo - I have to say that I always preferred the PS2 versions (like Champions of Norrath) to the point and click style interface, but the Move has a lot more input axis than either the Mouse or the DS3, so if well used I could see some potential there.
But Shifty is right - the Move would be perfect for a Populous style game. Instead of clicking bits of land away or adding them to create a mountain, you could literally pull the rocks from the earth or push the earth down to create a lake, grab and squish people, sow disease etc. Could be amazing.
DonaldDuck
Newcomer
There´s a demo isn´t? Well, I thought it was another simplified RTS with atrocious pad control.
I´ll take a look, thanks for the info.
I´ll take a look, thanks for the info.
Yeah, the demo is pretty decent. The final version runs a bit smoother than the demo, and there is a patch either out or coming that improves some of the popin and other issues as well. I'm definitely looking to pick up this game at some point, but I have so many good Move games right now, and I made a resolution a long time ago that I would play games that I liked till I didn't like them anymore before I would buy another game I like ...
Reviews I've seen have the Move controls rated just a smidge below PC mouse. Was watching RUSE being played last night, and looked fast and easy enough once learnt. Both RTSes designed around Move seem to have properly embraced it, rather than targeting dual-stick pads and mapping those controls to Move.DonaldDuck
Newcomer
It sounds promising.
Now it´s time to spread the effectiveness of the control with Move. You know the crossed implications that controls have with applications; people seems to be pleased with the way Move handles the control of RUSE, but persist the fact that RUSE may well be a game just above average.
The killer application schema involving new controls it´s not in the quality of the control itself, but in the excellence of a game that uses it.
RUSE (I really overlooked this game, so I´ll prove it later, with Move in my hands) can be managed wonderfully with Move, but just think about a big RTS franchise with it.
There´s a relative big amount of companies that have developed good RTS since the nineties, let´s take Haemimont for example. They´re bulgarian and here in Spain (strangely) have had a really warm accueil with Tzar and other PC games offered at a low price. The games are simple, but effective and (more important) adictive. It´s not absurd to think in a partnership with Sony in order to develop some sort of third party exclusive in a relative short time, with a strong backup from Sony with its technology, engines, etc. It´s just an example.
(I don´t know if "atrocious pad control" seems offensive... I was not thinking of RUSE as a mess -in fact my attention to RTS in console is frozen since a long time-, but pointing to the fact that the almost complete bunch of RTS for console have a pad control unintuitive and slow).
Now it´s time to spread the effectiveness of the control with Move. You know the crossed implications that controls have with applications; people seems to be pleased with the way Move handles the control of RUSE, but persist the fact that RUSE may well be a game just above average.
The killer application schema involving new controls it´s not in the quality of the control itself, but in the excellence of a game that uses it.
RUSE (I really overlooked this game, so I´ll prove it later, with Move in my hands) can be managed wonderfully with Move, but just think about a big RTS franchise with it.
There´s a relative big amount of companies that have developed good RTS since the nineties, let´s take Haemimont for example. They´re bulgarian and here in Spain (strangely) have had a really warm accueil with Tzar and other PC games offered at a low price. The games are simple, but effective and (more important) adictive. It´s not absurd to think in a partnership with Sony in order to develop some sort of third party exclusive in a relative short time, with a strong backup from Sony with its technology, engines, etc. It´s just an example.
(I don´t know if "atrocious pad control" seems offensive... I was not thinking of RUSE as a mess -in fact my attention to RTS in console is frozen since a long time-, but pointing to the fact that the almost complete bunch of RTS for console have a pad control unintuitive and slow).
DonaldDuck, I don't think Sony should limit themselves to a few genra. It may not be the right kind of focus we want because our taste are different.
FWIW, there are RUSE and Under Siege for RTS. I think there is a third RTS game that allows you to zoom into action RPG level for combat, but I forgot the name.
I think Gladiator Duel in Sports Champions is a fantastic addition. It may lay the ground work for future action RPG titles. Heavy Rain is also interesting in its own way but there are so many possibilities in third person view games (e.g., Resident Evil)
For FPSes, we already know MAG, Socom 4, Time Crisis, and KZ3 are coming.
For puzzles, we have Tumble, Echochrome 2 and Flight Control HD.
For augmented reality games, we have Start the Party and EyePet.
For sports, we have golf, pool, bowling, tennis, table tennis, disc golf, beach volleyball in Sports Champions, and probably MLB The Show.
For music and dancing, we have SingStar Dance and Dance Dance Revolution.
They all have their special sauces. At this point, my favorite Move games are not RTS or FPS.
EDIT: I think the developers should use this opportunity to experiment and mix up the genre boundaries.
What seems to be missing are the non-games. I only found Q Games' music visualizer so far.
What's also missing is Sony's vision on common services and integration (e.g., revamped OS UI widgets and look, no common avatar and user profile integration, no new network services for Move)
FWIW, there are RUSE and Under Siege for RTS. I think there is a third RTS game that allows you to zoom into action RPG level for combat, but I forgot the name.
I think Gladiator Duel in Sports Champions is a fantastic addition. It may lay the ground work for future action RPG titles. Heavy Rain is also interesting in its own way but there are so many possibilities in third person view games (e.g., Resident Evil)
For FPSes, we already know MAG, Socom 4, Time Crisis, and KZ3 are coming.
For puzzles, we have Tumble, Echochrome 2 and Flight Control HD.
For augmented reality games, we have Start the Party and EyePet.
For sports, we have golf, pool, bowling, tennis, table tennis, disc golf, beach volleyball in Sports Champions, and probably MLB The Show.
For music and dancing, we have SingStar Dance and Dance Dance Revolution.
They all have their special sauces. At this point, my favorite Move games are not RTS or FPS.
EDIT: I think the developers should use this opportunity to experiment and mix up the genre boundaries.
What seems to be missing are the non-games. I only found Q Games' music visualizer so far.
What's also missing is Sony's vision on common services and integration (e.g., revamped OS UI widgets and look, no common avatar and user profile integration, no new network services for Move)
DonaldDuck
Newcomer
No, I didn´t want to say that, sorry if I didn´t explain myself clearly. What I think is that Sony must build a killer application just in order to make people love Move, and then spread the new control to everything it´s suitable. It´s just the Wii approach, but with a second phase of growth that, in Nintendo´s case, I believe hasn´t been brilliant (for "hardcore" gamers, obviously Nintendo is extremely happy). If they don´t "sell" the controller, it will fade, and will fade fast.
I have always seen Move as a second chance for the Wiimote concept, with improved capabilities, if you want, but with a surprising soft emphasis in building a concept, strongly backed up with a brilliant (and brilliant doesn´t mean "complex" or "expensive") application. As I said before, with emphasis on technology and not on marketing or, as other said, vision. WiiPlay and WiiSports was the kind of "vision" that people needed (sometimes I believe that the nature of that vision was a burden to some extent, that´s it, "casual" light games are the core, and not the gate to the core, "hard" core).
And that´s important because Kinect, due to technical reasons, hasn´t the ultra-precission that a hardcore control may need, and I´m waiting for an adequate substitute for mouse since a looong time, just as a first step to have room for PC "forgotten" genres.
Forgive me, I´m hungry a bit, and I want good RTS, good point-and-click games, why not good-fast-responsive alternative control for FPS, something that a simple mouse offered a long time ago, and new applications for Move or motion controllers in general. And I still believe that the precision a button can offer is still compulsory for certain games.
Of course Kinect is phenomenal for other genres, and in its own it´ll be really useful, but a future with Kinect dominating the market and Move almost unnoticed it´s not the best scenario for old-fashion games. And I believe it will happen, just because Microsoft knows how to sell their technology, and Sony doesn´t.
Regards.
Prophecy2k
Veteran
I don't really see Kinect dominating anything regardless of whether the thing sells or not. Even if MS sells a kajillion billion units i can't see much changing in the way of what will be and continue to be the prevalent gaming genres. Kinect is more of product (like motion on the Wii) to expand the market, and MS have been quite clear on their target audience with the device. Their goal is to reach out to those who do not currently play games and see the currently available control interfaces as a barrier that prevents them from enjoying gaming as an entertainment medium.
If anything, the relativlely poor sales of core games on the Wii only goes support the notion that those "expanded audience" gamers that came into gaming with Wii-Fit etc, didn't move on in any significant numbers to more traditionally core game-types/genres. With that in mind i think it's safe to say that the core gaming genres will always be around and will always be a significant part of the gaming business.
The thing that makes me personally appreciate Sony's approach to motion control gaming with the MOVE is that it is a very versatile device. It's already been discussed how many different more traditional game genres can improved and enhanced with pointer and the 3D motion tracking. Additionally because of what the technology is inherently capable of it can be used in an almost infinite amount of new scenarios/new genres and so allows game developers to really think outside the box and not only create brand new experiences, but also make them as deep and enriching as the traditional genres we all know and are used to... that for me is what separates it apart from Kinect. And that for me, regardless of MS' hype machine, is what makes me think that going forward what we may very well see in future as the standard control interface to rule them all for all consoles will be a combination of 3D camera (ala Kinect) and motion wand (ala Move).
So ultimately, in my view, regardless of who sells more of their motion devices, both MOVE and Kinect (and by default the Wiimote) will leave a legacy that will drive the medium forward for the forseeable future ;-)
